Thread: Question About Being "Done" on an Arkie

Okay, so I started on the Surgical Black mentioned in my other thread with two I had in my stable that were at least nominally shave-ready, but both full-hollows that can be kind of "scrapy" on my face. One is a Torrey, and the other is a George Butler "Shakespeare" razor.

I don't really count strokes any more, especially on naturals, but spent about 15 minutes on each razor on the prepped SB on water with a drop of dish soap, using a combination of back and forths, circles and x-strokes with moderate torque on the edge. Pretty quickly I started getting that "sticky" feeling with some squeak and a feeling that the blade wanted to dig in, almost exactly like the final strokes on a hard JNAT. I then lightened up and continued, refreshing the water and soap as needed to keep things gliding along, and it kept coming back on both blades, so I figured I'd finish with some ultra-light passes and quit while I was ahead (operating under the assumption that any real digging in of a blade into an ultra-hard ark surface would be disastrous!). I sealed the deal with 40 linen and 60 leather stropping strokes, and both passed the HHT all along a near-mirror bevel.

Do you Arkie experts get that stickiness, and is it a reliable measure of being done as on some other naturals? I don't recall getting this much on my 4x2 translucent (maybe because less of the blade is in contact with the hone at any given time?).

Another thing: although conventional wisdom from my extensive reading holds that arkies need hundreds of strokes and a lot of time to work their magic, I have read some others say that because of the unique nature of the stone, more pressure can be used than on, say, a Coti or other finishers, thus speeding things up considerably. This is what I was trying to achieve, and both edges "seem" to confirm that it worked. I'm also considering switching to oil in the theory that the extra cushion might allow for a hair more pressure, as I've seen on a couple of arkie honing videos.

For now, these are all just theories. I'd love some input into them from you experienced users re technique and being "done."

As I shaved this morning, I'll need to sprout some hair again before doing the real test.

Thanks in advance-Aaron

I prefer Smith's honing solution on my Black and Trans Arkies. You will sense how much torque/pressure is needed.

Norton's on the coarser Arkies.

I rely on what I see under the loupe. To me the sound is just metal vibrating across a poorly lubricated surface. Even with soap in the mix water's not a great lubricant. I dislike sticking and usually try to stop before it occurs. If it does, I know I should move on to the next phase or call it done if I'm on the last step.

How many strokes it takes is relative. Coming to a translucent stone from a Hard Arkie or an 8K I normally do about 200 strokes, half on water the other half on wet shave lather. I could probably get away with 50 to 75 strokes on each, but it's therapeutic so I don't mind the extra time spent. And it isn't much, maybe 5 to 6 minutes if I'm poking around. Or I could take it to the 12K stone, then do 25 to 30 on wet lather and be happy with the result.

With regard to pressure I treat them like any other finishing stone. Less is more. If I did my job on the previous stone polish should be fairly high, scratches minimal, and blade very close to ready. It might take a few more strokes than if I mixed pressure in, but I can live with that.

Yes, switch to mineral oil (baby oil). The stickiness probably coming from the soap starting to dry out. I agree with Marshall, 200 minimum strokes. For me it's a comfort thing. Hone in left hand, razor in right, settled in front to of TV, put on a favorite hour show, commence stroking, at end of show you're likely done.

Once you get some experience on your Black try going dry and wash stone after honing session. The lubricant is mainly to keep the swarf afloat and not embed into the stone. If you wash afterwards with Dawn, the swarf will all wash away.

So I tested those 2 hollow-grinds this evening, with mixed results (which you can take with a grain of salt as I'm a relatively inexperienced Arkie user working on a stone I'm still breaking in).

The George Butler "Shakespeare" razor that I worked on yesterday on water and dish soap was "okay" from all angles, though still a tiny bit scrapy. It had passed the HHT and was tree-topping leg hair all along the edge after honing and stropping last night, which just goes to show you. Will work on it some more.

For the Torrey, I did a little extra. After reading LHT's advice re mineral oil and watching some videos, I put 6 drops of lavender baby oil (hey-it's what I had, shut up!) on the surface and just started honing away. Again, I didn't count laps, but just kept going (I'm guessing for a few hundred laps) because it was so much smoother and more enjoyable letting the blade glide over the thin film of oil-it really just gave silky, almost greased bowling ball feedback. I Stropped again afterward (my usual 40/60 or so), and this one was noticeably smoother than the other.

I think I'm going to stick with baby oil for now and see how I do as the hone gets slicker and my technique improves. Thanks for the tips and encouragement! Aaron

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

So I tested those 2 hollow-grinds this evening, with mixed results
.....
I think I'm going to stick with baby oil for now and see how I do as the hone gets slicker and my technique improves. Thanks for the tips and encouragement! Aaron

I do not count myself an Arkie expert but based on the ones I have less is more.
Once you had an edge be gentle to recover it.

Any light oil can work from mineral oil to WD40.

I do not think of any Arkie as an abrasive for steel I think of it as a sheep's foot compactor that will both reshape and
even harden steel.

I thought I wrecked my Black after lapping it with a coarse DMT. It took a lot of
burnishing to calm the surface down, it remembered the coarse DMT and reminded
me over and over. I resorted to slurry from my Naniwas to speed up the burnishing
and finished with a spray of 0.25micron CBN.

I get nicer results with less effort from modern hones. Your rocks might be better than mine
so do not be discouraged.

The nice thing about a less is more approach is if it needs more you can give it more.
If you worried it too much you cannot undo the last 150 laps..

Try honing with the same gentle touch you shave with.

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Okay, so I started on the Surgical Black mentioned in my other thread with two I had in my stable that were at least nominally shave-ready, but both full-hollows that can be kind of "scrapy" on my face. One is a Torrey, and the other is a George Butler "Shakespeare" razor.

I don't really count strokes any more, especially on naturals, but spent about 15 minutes on each razor on the prepped SB on water with a drop of dish soap, using a combination of back and forths, circles and x-strokes with moderate torque on the edge. Pretty quickly I started getting that "sticky" feeling with some squeak and a feeling that the blade wanted to dig in, almost exactly like the final strokes on a hard JNAT. I then lightened up and continued, refreshing the water and soap as needed to keep things gliding along, and it kept coming back on both blades, so I figured I'd finish with some ultra-light passes and quit while I was ahead (operating under the assumption that any real digging in of a blade into an ultra-hard ark surface would be disastrous!). I sealed the deal with 40 linen and 60 leather stropping strokes, and both passed the HHT all along a near-mirror bevel.

Do you Arkie experts get that stickiness, and is it a reliable measure of being done as on some other naturals? I don't recall getting this much on my 4x2 translucent (maybe because less of the blade is in contact with the hone at any given time?).

Another thing: although conventional wisdom from my extensive reading holds that arkies need hundreds of strokes and a lot of time to work their magic, I have read some others say that because of the unique nature of the stone, more pressure can be used than on, say, a Coti or other finishers, thus speeding things up considerably. This is what I was trying to achieve, and both edges "seem" to confirm that it worked. I'm also considering switching to oil in the theory that the extra cushion might allow for a hair more pressure, as I've seen on a couple of arkie honing videos.

For now, these are all just theories. I'd love some input into them from you experienced users re technique and being "done."

As I shaved this morning, I'll need to sprout some hair again before doing the real test.

Thanks in advance-Aaron

They will still feel slick when finishing, unless you're using a lubricant that doesn't make them so. Keep honing razors and your experience will tell you when the razor is ready. In my experience, an arkansas finisher is better used with some pressure for initial strokes, and gradually lighter pressure.

I have been using arks for a long time, before they were said to be OK on razor forums, and still find better experience with oil or a water based oil substitute than dish soap. The stones need something oil-like to float particles out.

I've also found that technique on the stones (X's, back and forth, circles, whatever you want to do) to be almost inconsequential. Just get the razor up to a polish and the stone will just about stop cutting. Ark and washita do that - they remove grooves with a little bit of speed and then nearly stop.

Last comment - arkanasas stones love stropping - I think due to shallow grooves or nearly no grooves, the foil is longer and thinner and less broken. A vintage linen and a good smooth leather will reward you with an excellent edge.

I have become a daily shaver only buying few razors and using only one or two of them. I know it's fun to hone, but I only do it about once every 200 shaves (either with an idwall or a dan's black ark - if you closed your eyes, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in the hone or the shave if the idwall is a good one). A good linen and a smooth hard broken in leather will make it so that you have to hone very little. Eventually, you want to preserve the last tiny slice of edge that's on the razor and not hone it all the way off - if you have a good linen and leather. The edge will remain smoother and sharper - no bite - the stone keeps the geometry of the bevel in check rather than creating the edge each time.

“I have doubts though, it was the cheap WoodCraft CrOx they explicitly warn us razor users not to use for our blades.”

Well, that is what “those” compounds are designed for, polishing.

They contain abrasives, that cut and polish hard materials, but when used on a razor edge, they leave a rough/harsh edge. The grit is unknown as to what it is and the grit size.

Try some good metal polish for even a higher polish on the stone, it can be used as a “slurry” to burnish and buff on a wheel after.

I have stropped on metal polish, and it will remove all visible stria. Simply joint the edge straight, then add a layer of tape and lay on a micro bevel with a few laps.

It is also a great way to experiment, and lay a new stria pattern on a flat, meeting bevel with no stria for comparing stone finish.

Are we talking about the "microfine" honing stick? That's the one that all of the controversy has been about for ten years or so, but the biggest issue with it isn't the aluminum oxide in it, it's the fact that it's wax and there's no great reason to have heavy wax on a strop.

Every time I've ever used that compound on tools, it has improved the edges from all of the synthetic stones I've tried (never tried the gok with tools, it's a waste of time, but I did use a shapton 15k pro and a SP 13k for a little while, and the microfine compound on MDF led to a finer edge - cleaner paring). It did lead to a little bit of spiderwebbing on the backs of tools (due to stray particles), but it would do the same thing on a razor (and did for me) - spider web the bevel a little bit, but it certainly didn't contribute to a rough edge in my experience. Clumps of it could, though.

If someone has a dull feeling edge after using the microfine sticks, or the veritas compound (as some people call it), I doubt it's usually that stick.

Yup, polishing compounds and metal polish works great on tools, and knives, especially wood working tools, where a micro serrated edge helps cutting wood fibers. I too have tried or still use most of the Micro Fine compounds on the market.

But on a razor edge, it leaves a harsh edge, especially if pressure is used with a hard substrate. I too use a MDF strop for wood working tools with polishing compounds.

A lot of the complaints a few years ago, were at the height of the Balsa wood strop craze, and with balsa, I do agree pressure and possibly inherent grit in the wood contributed to the harsh edge.

But it’s not like it will “ruin” a razor, some light finish honing can straighten a razor edge right up, easily. Try the Jantz Pink Scratchless for a keen wood working or knife edge on MDF or a cardboard strop.

Probably some combo of Ferrous Oxide and Aluminum, whatever it is, it leaves a smoking buffer finish, on a razor after Green Stainless compound. It also works very well on scales, Plastic, Celluloid, and Horn.