Thread: Jnats, Fake Stamps and Soft Stones

Originally Posted by mainaman

Hatanaka, usually are perfect rectangular shaped stones, I suspect that sometimes imperfect stones did make the cut based on performance.
Here are my two which I am certain are authentic, the asagi is perfect with not a single line or chip on it.

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The issue with Suita stones in Japan now is that they are pretty hard. That makes the prices lower than what they would be if the stones were softer. That is good for us if we buy direct, vendors still tend to up the price too much IMO.

I think a safe bet is to shop estate sale of barber equipment, I got a flawless Maruka (in the pics only the contours of the stamp were barely showing so i took the gamble) and got a high end stone for under $100 bucks.

Those are beautiful stones. the top one may be irregular, but it's clear to someone who has seen a moderate number of stones that it's not a common stone. The one that I saw was a little more misshapen than that, but I could guess by looking at it that it may be genuine hatanaka (it has the box, but you never know what someone can do to end up with a box containing a stone that's not hatanaka).

I 100% agree that there is no need to spend a lot of money for a good performer. I like kiita stones, but someone on a budget should look elsewhere as few of them are really excellent despite many being pretty.

I agree on the stamps, too, but that's why I said above if they dilute the market enough, we'll end up looking closely at the stone instead of just trusting the stamp. I think I wouldn't mind so much if someone sold me a 30 size stone for $250 with a fake stamp if it was a great stone. Same if it was $125 and 800 grams or so and flat and good proportioned.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I 100% agree that there is no need to spend a lot of money for a good performer. I like kiita stones, but someone on a budget should look elsewhere as few of them are really excellent despite many being pretty.

IMHO the best bang for the buck are Wakasa stones. They are not expensive and very consistent as finishers for razors. To me the feel on a Wakasa is as close to a Nakayama feel as it gets.

Originally Posted by Utopian

I completely agree, and have experienced this. Be careful whom you trust when money is involved.

Ditto that. Even trusted dealers can sell stuff that's not that great. The wholesalers pushing some of these things along may be fairly respected, too. But they are in business.

That's why I've got a preference of getting an ugly stone out of a dealer if one wants to. There won't be an argument about a stamp being real or not real, it won't be there, but the stone will be more reasonably priced and if the dealer is honest, it will do wonders for a razor.

Originally Posted by mainaman

IMHO the best bang for the buck are Wakasa stones. They are not expensive and very consistent as finishers for razors. To me the feel on a Wakasa is as close to a Nakayama feel as it gets.

I don't have any wakasa stones, and have been using an idwall on razors lately (because I hone extremely rarely), but I agree with the sentiment. Don't care about the name, and the "it" mines that have a lot of history often command a premium when others may do the same thing. Sort of like solingen knives cost a premium over something like henckels spanish international (which they may not make any longer). The spanish made knives that I've used cost a lot less and are at least as good. Or for that matter, a tojiro DP knife from an honest dealer is the same or less and a far better knife unless someone is just adamant that they must be able to steel a knife often.

It is true that the best stones were mined long ago. That doesn't mean that they aren't still out there, both used and 'new'. There is still a lot of stone in storage from mining operations that ceased long ago, in old dealer stock, and as used stones.

Tool and knife hones are softer and can easily be consumed by an active woodworker. But razor hones are hard, pressure is light, and razor hones mined decades ago are still around, though some are worn down quite a bit, but still have decades more left in them, especially if you only use it for final finishing.

So it is not true that all the best stones mined long ago are all gone, especially where razor hones are concerned. High grade tool hones like suita will be getting progressively more expensive, as will softer knife and small tool stones especially yellow kiita which is already high. I've watched a very nice sunashi suita priced at $4k not sell. But $2k for a fine suita is just a business expense if you are Japanese carpenter restoring temples and tea rooms.

We razors guys are lucky. A fine jnat razor hone is hard, and even if it is only 1/2" thick and you're Lynn, you're not likely to wear it out in a lifetime if you only use it with tomo to finish. If you're worried about that, buy 2. Lol.

Cheers, Steve

Gentlemen, topics like these mean nothing without pictures. Thanks Stefan, by the way...

Here's one, advertised on an auction right now as top tier whetstone. I tried to keep only the surface of the stone in the picture to avoid references to a live auction. Not giving you any keywords either. It's about 140mm in length, 500g. It is already twice as high as I would pay for it, sadly.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

Gentlemen, topics like these mean nothing without pictures. Thanks Stefan, by the way...

Here's one, advertised on an auction right now as top tier whetstone. I tried to keep only the surface of the stone in the picture to avoid references to a live auction. Not giving you any keywords either. It's about 140mm in length, 500g. It is already twice as high as I would pay for it, sadly.

It is not even a Hatanaka, the stamp is generic. Since Hatanaka San has passed there is no heir to the Hatanaka stamp, it is free for all right now and lots of stones have been stamped with fake stamps. To me a stone with so many lines is not worth the money at all.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

Gentlemen, topics like these mean nothing without pictures. Thanks Stefan, by the way...

Here's one, advertised on an auction right now as top tier whetstone. I tried to keep only the surface of the stone in the picture to avoid references to a live auction. Not giving you any keywords either. It's about 140mm in length, 500g. It is already twice as high as I would pay for it, sadly.

Where would you get a stone at half that price? A tomo can cost half that. Now this stone has several issues of why I would not buy, but the stamp is more advertising and true stone quality won't be known without trial. Even at the price it is if the sharpening quality is there and this was cut to say 100g tomos at .35 a gram one could more than double their money.

I wonder if the wholesaler just has an old stock and a catalog of what is there and stamps stones based on that. Otherwise why wouldn't every stone be stamped for maximum profit.

The truth is that we are living and breathing and buying these stones which were mined towards the end of an era that began hundreds of years ago, and we here on this and other forums exist in consumer driven economy of English speaking consumers spending plentiful Dollars and Euros and have a track record of driving and encouraging export markets to suit our whims and hobbies. The economic source of these stones is in a free fall situation, was regulated on handshakes and honor and now is peopled in Japan at the retail by week-end stone sellers on Yahoo and E-bay and a handful of actual shop owners mostly in Tokyo and Kyoto. The part time internet sellers are trying their best to provide the stones we want while the old fashioned tradition family run shop owners are only holding on in some cases because the own the building they operate
from. Store owners have no joyful way to replenish their stock and the internet sellers scramble around at flea markets looking for quick turnover.

I reported about 10 years ago after I visited the storage building and workshops of the Ohira and the Hitomi stone companies that I found large amounts of raw stones on pallets in storage. We know that Ishihara-san of Ohira Mine Co. has died and that his son in law is liquidating the stone assets, Hatanaka-san has also passed and their stock was liquidated and I just visited Hitomi-san (the current president of the Kyoto Miners Association) two months ago and I found that his stone locker has, I would estimate, only about 20% is left of what I saw 10 years ago.

These deep sources of harvested and stored stone are being depleted year by year and this will be the end of the Honyama stone from those famous mines of Naurtaki, Nakayama, Okudo, Oozuku/Ohzuku, Ozake and Shobudani. All of these mines sites were scraped clean and are unstable for any further development. The thousands of stones sold on with internet each month is biting into those old hoards like never before. We in the west crave the finest and flawless stones but obviously if the price is right will take a chance here or there.

With the passing of Hatanaka-san the traditional standards of grading stones from the top down is weakening. Here is an old link I still have that shows the top grade. At $31,000 this standard may have only been a wish for Hatanaka-san, but I suspect that he might have actually sold that stone. The Link Code looks weird but it works.

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Those types of prices, and that type of stone are a thing of the past, what we live in now is a time of transition regarding price and quality. Few fellows 20 years from now will actually have a chance to hold let alone test or try these old school top rated stones. The Maruoyama era is next, their stones look very good and the sizes are impressive with excellent conformation. A family run business they are out there at the Kezuroukai and other shows. I have used their stones but truthfully I find them in general to be slow cutting.

Fewer and fewer carpenters hand sharpen their tools with natural stones now, and in the past they were the 95% of the users of naturals in the old days. Steve mentioned that hard stones for razors are still in the market place, that maybe true and lucky for us, but the Mikawa source is about done too. With level 5+++ razor stones a tomo nagura and a diamond plate are a must. A super Nakayama level 5+++ razor hone with a Maruoyama tomo nagura is a slow cutting affair. Lots of gloom and doom from my end in these words, I still jump out of bed in the morning though and I love the stones. So please take the above as a bit of reporting.

Alex

Not much different from, Real Estate, Vintage Automobiles & Motorcycles, Denim, American Antiques and many other things, except some go back to Japan or other countries, for crazy cash.

The difference now, is the internet has exposed all markets to massive numbers of buyers. The more buyers, the higher the price, the last crazy price becomes, the new normal.

Supply and demand…