Thread: jnat resources

Hi Gents,

As a new honer, the jnat world is about the same complexity as alchemy. I've been to dozens of web sites trying to sort out the relevant from the chaff. Perhaps this work has already been done and I've not looked in the correct places?

Who knew that sedimentary rocks impregnated with silica was so nuanced and complex?

Anyway, I've had success with synthetics and want to begin my jnat journey in a reasonable way. Any advice, resources, tutorials, or hard won (and I'm certain there is a great deal) knowledge is much appreciated.

Gabe

Alex from thejapanstone and Keith from TomoNagura are both very knowledgeable. I haven't purchased from them yet but they both get great feedback.

TheJapanStone natural japanese sharpening stones tennen toishi

https://www.etsy.com/shop/TomoNagura

Also read the many posts here at SRP, just use the search box.

So should a new jnat honer look for one stone with multiple Nagura, as was demonstrated by Mainaman? Should the first jnat be a softer stone, such as a Lv3 or Lv4? What is the most reasonable way into the 'club' so to speak?

Of the two guys above, if you're new to this, I would go to alex and tell him that you want performance over looks (you can buy looks later) and give him your budget (Somewhere around $200 is what it's going to take to get a good older stone, perhaps less if he has something that's a bit oddball looking and thin). He'll max out what you can get with dealer support. If you get the disease, then you can start looking around and trying to maximize your dollar without a dealer, but it's good to start off with a capable stone - an indian can't blame the arrow if the arrow is straight, if you know what I mean. Reasonable width (65mm+, closer to 70) before thickness. If you get a good stone 9/16ths of an inch thick and mount it, its under threat of being dropped or bumped more than it is being worn through.

My opinion, but I see a lot of stuff that keith sells that's commodity but for a high price (things that wouldn't sell for anything in the japanese market - narrow stone, small tsushima for more than the price of large tsushima, etc), and over selling and overnaming of things (e.g., if a stone has a spot, then it's karasu). I would go to alex first - stuff that he has that's high is more consistent with what brings money in japan. He's been in this game a lot longer and is more of a student of the stones.

Not to say you couldn't get a good stone from anyone. As we said in another thread, once you know what you're buying, you'll be able to stab out good chances at palm sized stones for $30-$60, or really get a good chance at a valuable stone for a few multiples of that. Or you can do the wise thing and buy one reasonable width stone from alex and ask for performance over looks and really able able to hone everything you ever get for the rest of your life. That's how I started, and I had a budget as mentioned above and stayed away from more expensive stones at first. I got prettier stones later, but never got another stone that outperformed the first one I got from alex.

Learning the stone is important, by the way. It will work differently for you after 6 months than it does right away, and better. Stones are often like tools, someone who is good with them will be able to use any of them. The person who is really good with just one or a few good ones will reap rewards and efficiency from familiarity.

Originally Posted by Midway

So should a new jnat honer look for one stone with multiple Nagura, as was demonstrated by Mainaman? Should the first jnat be a softer stone, such as a Lv3 or Lv4? What is the most reasonable way into the 'club' so to speak?

I personally do not think that a Lv 3 or 4 are best for razors. Into the Lv5 range is where you will want to end up. Medium hard stones in Lv5- can leave very personable comfortable edges, Lv5++ can created wickedly keen edges. The beauty of Japanese naturals is that the slurry element widens the base stones capabilities, a tomo slurry stone used on a Lv 3or4 base stones creates too much slurry which acts as a cushion under the blade and this makes precision sharpening more tricky.

Alex

100 % agree with that. Soft stones can leave a coarse edge, even if they have small particles, and if they're too soft to hold their particles in place, they have a very narrow range of working capabilities. If the slurry turns into more of a lubricant like alex is talking about, then you're in trouble and you still need a finisher to complete the job.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Of the two guys above, if you're new to this, I would go to alex and tell him that you want performance over looks (you can buy looks later) and give him your budget (Somewhere around $200 is what it's going to take to get a good older stone, perhaps less if he has something that's a bit oddball looking and thin). He'll max out what you can get with dealer support. If you get the disease, then you can start looking around and trying to maximize your dollar without a dealer, but it's good to start off with a capable stone - an indian can't blame the arrow if the arrow is straight, if you know what I mean. Reasonable width (65mm+, closer to 70) before thickness. If you get a good stone 9/16ths of an inch thick and mount it, its under threat of being dropped or bumped more than it is being worn through.

My opinion, but I see a lot of stuff that keith sells that's commodity but for a high price (things that wouldn't sell for anything in the japanese market - narrow stone, small tsushima for more than the price of large tsushima, etc), and over selling and overnaming of things (e.g., if a stone has a spot, then it's karasu). I would go to alex first - stuff that he has that's high is more consistent with what brings money in japan. He's been in this game a lot longer and is more of a student of the stones.

Not to say you couldn't get a good stone from anyone. As we said in another thread, once you know what you're buying, you'll be able to stab out good chances at palm sized stones for $30-$60, or really get a good chance at a valuable stone for a few multiples of that. Or you can do the wise thing and buy one reasonable width stone from alex and ask for performance over looks and really able able to hone everything you ever get for the rest of your life. That's how I started, and I had a budget as mentioned above and stayed away from more expensive stones at first. I got prettier stones later, but never got another stone that outperformed the first one I got from alex.

Learning the stone is important, by the way. It will work differently for you after 6 months than it does right away, and better. Stones are often like tools, someone who is good with them will be able to use any of them. The person who is really good with just one or a few good ones will reap rewards and efficiency from familiarity.

Thanks so much for the words of advice. I've tended to be a shoot first, ask questions later sort of personality, but this is so out of my realm that I don't even know how to approach this in a reasonable manner. And what is a reasonable budget for a first stab at this?

Like DaveW said, get in touch with Alex. I told him where I was and he steered me towards a very reasonably priced stone, less than 300$ category, that on the first try put a nice edge on the razor. I had my eyes on a much more expensive one but he said not to do it. I respect that.
At least for me I found it easier to use a larger stone instead of a small koppa in the beginning.

Originally Posted by Midway

So should a new jnat honer look for one stone with multiple Nagura, as was demonstrated by Mainaman? Should the first jnat be a softer stone, such as a Lv3 or Lv4? What is the most reasonable way into the 'club' so to speak?

There are many ways to skin a cat.
You can go for a harder base stone and nagura set+ tomonagura
You can go for for a harder base stone + mejiro and tomonagura, and add a suita to bridge the 1k gap
You can go for a diamond slurry and a quality base stone.

I would not go for lvl3 stone as a finisher, that hardness is for knives mainly.
Lvl 4 is tools , although if you are lucky you'll get a very fine stone that might work.
I personally would stick with lvl5 or a bit harder stones.

You also have to consider that lvl 5 from one vendor is not lvl5 from another vendor, everyone has their own method of assigning hardness.
Make sure the stone you are getting is tested on a razor, not just claimed to have been tested.

Originally Posted by mainaman

There are many ways to skin a cat.
You can go for a harder base stone and nagura set+ tomonagura
You can go for for a harder base stone + mejiro and tomonagura, and add a suita to bridge the 1k gap
You can go for a diamond slurry and a quality base stone.

I would not go for lvl3 stone as a finisher, that hardness is for knives mainly.
Lvl 4 is tools , although if you are lucky you'll get a very fine stone that might work.
I personally would stick with lvl5 or a bit harder stones.

You also have to consider that lvl 5 from one vendor is not lvl5 from another vendor, everyone has their own method of assigning hardness.
Make sure the stone you are getting is tested on a razor, not just claimed to have been tested.

Thanks for your insight. Part of the issue is of course not being a Japanese linguist. The other part is trying to distill what is important versus what might be nice to know, but not useful to a newcomer.