Thread: oil on Jnat

Two things that perform like oil are glycerine (aka glycerol) and Smith's Honing Solution. Both can be diluted with water, which allows for the ability to vary the viscosity and for easy removal from the stone.

You would most likely be damaging a stone.
There are the ones that CAN be used with oil, and the ones that SHOULDN'T. Like Thuringians and the classic Japanese. And some in-between, like, say, coticules which I have seen be used with oil; I wouldn't again recommend it, but to each his own. Or many UK stones, that can be used with one or the other. Even Arkansas stones can be used with water, although most prefer oil.
You can. But do you have to, and, will there be consequences for the stone? For your case, yes, most likely.
As Utopian said, you can use glycerin, water/glycerin mix or Smith's solution which I do use frequently, that don't "permanently" damage the stone.

I've used regular rubbing alcohol to 'degrease' jnats that have been used with oil/honing solution. It works but may take several soaks changing the alcohol depending what was used, and it doesn't hurt the stone. I think that most razor-hard jnats are only slightly permeable - mikawas seem to be different, oil will penetrate much deeper. Alcohol has also never harmed the stamps on any with stamps that I have used it on.

Cheers, Steve

@ Steve 56 .... Alcohool should not harm water soluble inks like the ones used in jnats...but it's nice to know someone tried and tested this, thanks for the info.

I'm smiling when i write this so dont take it the wrong way....

With all due respect this oil and water dont mix thing is a bit taboo.

I have had thuringians and even Eschers that were used by the old guys at the sharpening shops with oil...when asked, they replied it make the stone cut faster and finer... at that time i thaught that was just plain stupid.

I have also recieved jnats that were used with oil or petrol...somwhere @ 50 years ago...stone was in great shape...actualy beeing impregnated with oil prevented it from cracking.

Cracking in jnats is due to oxidation of metalic substrate in the presence of air and WATER...no Water...no oxidation....no pressure effect (oxides ocupy a larger volume then the metal substrate) along the metal mineral lines and no cracking...or anyway much less of it...some cracking is due to contraction/dilatation of the stone when subjected to temperature changes...like honing with warm water.

So yess...oil is messy...it's not readyily available...if you run out you cant just go to the sink for more....but it has it's specific advantages that have to be put in balance.

NO, i am not an oil fan, i like water for the reasons mentioned above....but i think you are not damaging a stone by converting it to an oilstone...you are just repurposing it )..some woodworkers love oilstones and they have reasons to.

i did my own experiments a while back when i found out about this...at first i felt angry like "what's this loonatic saying here use oil on my precious whetstones"...but guess what ... i tested a few stones i could dispose of and indeed they worked diffrent then on water...
for instance the 3 hone set sold by AJ...those english Slates...they cut way faster on oil....so did a slab of thuringian...coticules/BBW cut faster and finer in many cases...and jnats cut faster ...sinthetics dont get clogged with metal swarf so much....

But i guess we all have to do our own experimenting...

I like when people use arguments, scientific arguments or personal arguments from experience and testing to suport their ideas.

in short my personal opinion from what i have tested is you should use dedicated whetstones with water and oilstones with oil, but if you want to experiment, you can, the results are interesting...

Now i'm not saying pour honing oil on your Nakayama Maruka ) or your Labled Escher...but there are cheaper stones you can experiment with.

My 2 cents, luv you guys!

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

...but i think you are not damaging a stone by converting it to an oilstone...you are just repurposing it ).

Sounds like some other things I have heard of for example your Labrador mixes with a poodle . It isn't a mistake and the puppies are not mutts . They become "Labor doodles" And those mud-slate stones with oil in them are not Exxon oil spills . They are oil field mud now . Just messing with you. I don't own any so I don't know anything about them .

W8... so your poodle messed up with a Labradore and now you're confused about doodle spills and oil...and upset you dont own any of the puppyes....
That's messed up dude...

Just kidding m8. I like a good one once in a while.

Oil vs Water

You have to take the slurry into account and not once in this thread have I read the word "Slurry"

Most J-nats become REALLY good once you learn to play in the Mud, otherwise you are not getting anywhere near the potential of that stone, you are paying for a stone that you are not utilizing

The same can be said for any other stone that the Slurry is important on ie: Using an Escher with oil is a total waste of money you are basically honing on a Slate or Novaculite, it is that fine mud that a Escher can produce that achieves the smoothness on the face we all strive for

Taking the "Mud" out of the equation on stones that can produce it is such a waste

But they are your stones your money and your face

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

I'm smiling when i write this so dont take it the wrong way....

With all due respect this oil and water dont mix thing is a bit taboo.

I have had thuringians and even Eschers that were used by the old guys at the sharpening shops with oil...when asked, they replied it make the stone cut faster and finer... at that time i thaught that was just plain stupid.

I have also recieved jnats that were used with oil or petrol...somwhere @ 50 years ago...stone was in great shape...actualy beeing impregnated with oil prevented it from cracking.

Cracking in jnats is due to oxidation of metalic substrate in the presence of air and WATER...no Water...no oxidation....no pressure effect (oxides ocupy a larger volume then the metal substrate) along the metal mineral lines and no cracking...or anyway much less of it...some cracking is due to contraction/dilatation of the stone when subjected to temperature changes...like honing with warm water.

So yess...oil is messy...it's not readyily available...if you run out you cant just go to the sink for more....but it has it's specific advantages that have to be put in balance.

NO, i am not an oil fan, i like water for the reasons mentioned above....but i think you are not damaging a stone by converting it to an oilstone...you are just repurposing it )..some woodworkers love oilstones and they have reasons to.

i did my own experiments a while back when i found out about this...at first i felt angry like "what's this loonatic saying here use oil on my precious whetstones"...but guess what ... i tested a few stones i could dispose of and indeed they worked diffrent then on water...
for instance the 3 hone set sold by AJ...those english Slates...they cut way faster on oil....so did a slab of thuringian...coticules/BBW cut faster and finer in many cases...and jnats cut faster ...sinthetics dont get clogged with metal swarf so much....

But i guess we all have to do our own experimenting...

I like when people use arguments, scientific arguments or personal arguments from experience and testing to suport their ideas.

in short my personal opinion from what i have tested is you should use dedicated whetstones with water and oilstones with oil, but if you want to experiment, you can, the results are interesting...

Now i'm not saying pour honing oil on your Nakayama Maruka ) or your Labled Escher...but there are cheaper stones you can experiment with.

My 2 cents, luv you guys!

Sure, you are re-purposing the stone, no arguments there.
As for your explanation on why Japanese stones crack, it's wrong both from a geological as well as "chemical" perspective; stones don't split because of oxidization of "metals" left as elements inside (the whole stone is oxides, from the cutting particles to the natural "binders", its color, although some inclusions could be oxides or/and sulfides), it's something that naturally happens when you take out the pressure that was above them and add water, while in their natural environment things would be different, that's the reason, with "as few words as possible" version.

Oil does not save a stone that's about to break from a crack and, good people, please don't try to save your stones this way.

As for the speed/fineness, yes, some stones get finer with oil, that's the general rule, for the stones that can be used with oil. For speed though, water does not make a stone slower. Even better, slurry, you can't beat slurry no matter the oil you use.
Same with the synthetics, some are just not being made to be used with oil.
In the end, I agree,everyone makes his choices. And face the consequences.
Today we have a couple of other solutions on taking pretty much all the benefits of using a stone with oil, only, without the oil but using something that can be washed away right away and doesn't live residues. Try that instead of oil, unless the stone is an oilstone, or the above solutions fail.
I meant no offense by answering this, naturally.

No offense taken Vasilis. I know who you are and thatbyou are a very knowledgeable man.
I am not encouraging using oil on whetstones or sintetics.
I am just saying that this topic vas discused many times and some people do comit blasphemy and use oil.

Its not my thing, I was just trying to provide some info on the use of oil from my personal experience, not promoting its use on whetstones. If you have a stone that just wont work with water and you are not using it hell trybit with oil what are you gaing toblose...youbaint using it anyway.

About the jnats.
I have been colecting and using jnats for @6-7 years. I have owned tested and sold many stones. I have read all ther is available online about them and many scientific artickes about how they formed and what thay are made of.

I think I am speaking knowingly when I say.
These stones were formed milions of years ago in an anaerobus medium...under water...the ocean floor.

When tha naory surfaved these stones were subjected to mechanical force promoting cracks in the layers.

These cracks exposed metalic minerals to air and water promoting the formation of Kawa-bark - a colourful layer of mineral oxides in the layers of the stones...this was a time consuming process.

Other reasons for crack sormation aside from oxidation of say iron to red or black feric oxide that exerts a pressure effect on the layers promoting layer separation and cracks are.

Dimensional instability during hidratation of the calcite binder and clay binder.
Like when using with water the binder slightlybhidrates...stone absorbs water and binder increases in volume. The water does notbpenetrate the whole volume of the stone so it iscomon scientifical sense to mention that the part of the stone thatbgets hidrated expands while the dry part remains of the same dimensions.

Also these stones are subjected to the elements like wanm...cold...water and air....
Temperature plays an important role in dimensional stability by expanding and contracting the stone promoting microfractures...this is how sand formed in milions of years...its phisics...its been proven.

These microfractures/fisures expose minerals to water and air...the minerals oxidize and oxides take up a larger volume then the metalic minerals.
This leads to a pressure effect...like red lines in coticules made of feric oxides or bark lines in jnats. This again is chemestry...it makes no exception...works the same un all mineral world.

Japanese people were aware of these proceses that is why they used laquer to seal the sides and ends of stones that exibited microcracking and layer separation...to prevent them from cracking.

Also the slurry issue is interesting.
The slurry is madeup of inert minerals like the abrasive particles and active minerals that react with water forming acids in the case of jnats.

These acids start oxidizingbthe metal ofban edged object beeing sharpened ie carbon steel.
This rezults innthe haze and hamon effect jnats are known of. Depending on te type of stone and mineral content the acudity can vary from mild to pronounced like in suita stones...uchiguomory...koma nagura...used for sword polishing to bringnout the hamon-quench line between hardened and soft steel...ie BCC cristaline structure and FCC cristaline structure that respond diffrently to acid oxidation.

The haze is also due to acid activiti of the slurry...as the abrasive particles cut and scratch the carbon steel new metal is exposed...acidic slurry gets in these grooves and start coroding...the areas that are in contact with the stone and get abraded at the end of the honingnwill be fresh and shiny while the areas that were under the effect of acid will be dull and oxidized....you end up with a pattern of fresh shinybsteel and oxidized patches...they reflect light diffrently ... they scatter the light diffrently...so thats whybour eyes percieve the haze of the jnat finish.

So I think Vasilis, now you will understand what I meant by oxidation promoting cracks amongst other factors.

And also why I said using oil with jnats will end up in losing the haze and hamon due to bypassing the acidic slurry formed with water.

I also theoreticaly see no reason why slurry cant be use with oil resulting inna cutting speed increase...but then again you will lose the acidic propertyes and results will be diffrent then usingnthem with water.

Jnats are whetstones. They should be used as such.

Can you put oil on one...sure...its your business and you do it of your own free will takingbthe risks.

Is it advisable to do so...no.

Does an oil impregnated jnat resist oxidation better...
Yes...theoreticaly oil is inert...it should prevent water and air from getting in microfisures and promotingboxidation...
Same way we oil our blades to brevent rust.

I have suported all my statements with scientific arguments...I see no reason for further missunderstandings.

Hope the info is usefull and my message finds you well my friend!

Have a nice day!