Thread: oil on Jnat

Oil vs Water

You have to take the slurry into account and not once in this thread have I read the word "Slurry"

Most J-nats become REALLY good once you learn to play in the Mud, otherwise you are not getting anywhere near the potential of that stone, you are paying for a stone that you are not utilizing

The same can be said for any other stone that the Slurry is important on ie: Using an Escher with oil is a total waste of money you are basically honing on a Slate or Novaculite, it is that fine mud that a Escher can produce that achieves the smoothness on the face we all strive for

Taking the "Mud" out of the equation on stones that can produce it is such a waste

But they are your stones your money and your face

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

I'm smiling when i write this so dont take it the wrong way....

With all due respect this oil and water dont mix thing is a bit taboo.

I have had thuringians and even Eschers that were used by the old guys at the sharpening shops with oil...when asked, they replied it make the stone cut faster and finer... at that time i thaught that was just plain stupid.

I have also recieved jnats that were used with oil or petrol...somwhere @ 50 years ago...stone was in great shape...actualy beeing impregnated with oil prevented it from cracking.

Cracking in jnats is due to oxidation of metalic substrate in the presence of air and WATER...no Water...no oxidation....no pressure effect (oxides ocupy a larger volume then the metal substrate) along the metal mineral lines and no cracking...or anyway much less of it...some cracking is due to contraction/dilatation of the stone when subjected to temperature changes...like honing with warm water.

So yess...oil is messy...it's not readyily available...if you run out you cant just go to the sink for more....but it has it's specific advantages that have to be put in balance.

NO, i am not an oil fan, i like water for the reasons mentioned above....but i think you are not damaging a stone by converting it to an oilstone...you are just repurposing it )..some woodworkers love oilstones and they have reasons to.

i did my own experiments a while back when i found out about this...at first i felt angry like "what's this loonatic saying here use oil on my precious whetstones"...but guess what ... i tested a few stones i could dispose of and indeed they worked diffrent then on water...
for instance the 3 hone set sold by AJ...those english Slates...they cut way faster on oil....so did a slab of thuringian...coticules/BBW cut faster and finer in many cases...and jnats cut faster ...sinthetics dont get clogged with metal swarf so much....

But i guess we all have to do our own experimenting...

I like when people use arguments, scientific arguments or personal arguments from experience and testing to suport their ideas.

in short my personal opinion from what i have tested is you should use dedicated whetstones with water and oilstones with oil, but if you want to experiment, you can, the results are interesting...

Now i'm not saying pour honing oil on your Nakayama Maruka ) or your Labled Escher...but there are cheaper stones you can experiment with.

My 2 cents, luv you guys!

Sure, you are re-purposing the stone, no arguments there.
As for your explanation on why Japanese stones crack, it's wrong both from a geological as well as "chemical" perspective; stones don't split because of oxidization of "metals" left as elements inside (the whole stone is oxides, from the cutting particles to the natural "binders", its color, although some inclusions could be oxides or/and sulfides), it's something that naturally happens when you take out the pressure that was above them and add water, while in their natural environment things would be different, that's the reason, with "as few words as possible" version.

Oil does not save a stone that's about to break from a crack and, good people, please don't try to save your stones this way.

As for the speed/fineness, yes, some stones get finer with oil, that's the general rule, for the stones that can be used with oil. For speed though, water does not make a stone slower. Even better, slurry, you can't beat slurry no matter the oil you use.
Same with the synthetics, some are just not being made to be used with oil.
In the end, I agree,everyone makes his choices. And face the consequences.
Today we have a couple of other solutions on taking pretty much all the benefits of using a stone with oil, only, without the oil but using something that can be washed away right away and doesn't live residues. Try that instead of oil, unless the stone is an oilstone, or the above solutions fail.
I meant no offense by answering this, naturally.

No offense taken Vasilis. I know who you are and thatbyou are a very knowledgeable man.
I am not encouraging using oil on whetstones or sintetics.
I am just saying that this topic vas discused many times and some people do comit blasphemy and use oil.

Its not my thing, I was just trying to provide some info on the use of oil from my personal experience, not promoting its use on whetstones. If you have a stone that just wont work with water and you are not using it hell trybit with oil what are you gaing toblose...youbaint using it anyway.

About the jnats.
I have been colecting and using jnats for @6-7 years. I have owned tested and sold many stones. I have read all ther is available online about them and many scientific artickes about how they formed and what thay are made of.

I think I am speaking knowingly when I say.
These stones were formed milions of years ago in an anaerobus medium...under water...the ocean floor.

When tha naory surfaved these stones were subjected to mechanical force promoting cracks in the layers.

These cracks exposed metalic minerals to air and water promoting the formation of Kawa-bark - a colourful layer of mineral oxides in the layers of the stones...this was a time consuming process.

Other reasons for crack sormation aside from oxidation of say iron to red or black feric oxide that exerts a pressure effect on the layers promoting layer separation and cracks are.

Dimensional instability during hidratation of the calcite binder and clay binder.
Like when using with water the binder slightlybhidrates...stone absorbs water and binder increases in volume. The water does notbpenetrate the whole volume of the stone so it iscomon scientifical sense to mention that the part of the stone thatbgets hidrated expands while the dry part remains of the same dimensions.

Also these stones are subjected to the elements like wanm...cold...water and air....
Temperature plays an important role in dimensional stability by expanding and contracting the stone promoting microfractures...this is how sand formed in milions of years...its phisics...its been proven.

These microfractures/fisures expose minerals to water and air...the minerals oxidize and oxides take up a larger volume then the metalic minerals.
This leads to a pressure effect...like red lines in coticules made of feric oxides or bark lines in jnats. This again is chemestry...it makes no exception...works the same un all mineral world.

Japanese people were aware of these proceses that is why they used laquer to seal the sides and ends of stones that exibited microcracking and layer separation...to prevent them from cracking.

Also the slurry issue is interesting.
The slurry is madeup of inert minerals like the abrasive particles and active minerals that react with water forming acids in the case of jnats.

These acids start oxidizingbthe metal ofban edged object beeing sharpened ie carbon steel.
This rezults innthe haze and hamon effect jnats are known of. Depending on te type of stone and mineral content the acudity can vary from mild to pronounced like in suita stones...uchiguomory...koma nagura...used for sword polishing to bringnout the hamon-quench line between hardened and soft steel...ie BCC cristaline structure and FCC cristaline structure that respond diffrently to acid oxidation.

The haze is also due to acid activiti of the slurry...as the abrasive particles cut and scratch the carbon steel new metal is exposed...acidic slurry gets in these grooves and start coroding...the areas that are in contact with the stone and get abraded at the end of the honingnwill be fresh and shiny while the areas that were under the effect of acid will be dull and oxidized....you end up with a pattern of fresh shinybsteel and oxidized patches...they reflect light diffrently ... they scatter the light diffrently...so thats whybour eyes percieve the haze of the jnat finish.

So I think Vasilis, now you will understand what I meant by oxidation promoting cracks amongst other factors.

And also why I said using oil with jnats will end up in losing the haze and hamon due to bypassing the acidic slurry formed with water.

I also theoreticaly see no reason why slurry cant be use with oil resulting inna cutting speed increase...but then again you will lose the acidic propertyes and results will be diffrent then usingnthem with water.

Jnats are whetstones. They should be used as such.

Can you put oil on one...sure...its your business and you do it of your own free will takingbthe risks.

Is it advisable to do so...no.

Does an oil impregnated jnat resist oxidation better...
Yes...theoreticaly oil is inert...it should prevent water and air from getting in microfisures and promotingboxidation...
Same way we oil our blades to brevent rust.

I have suported all my statements with scientific arguments...I see no reason for further missunderstandings.

Hope the info is usefull and my message finds you well my friend!

Have a nice day!

Oil VS water aside, I feel the need to clarify a few things;

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

About the jnats.
I have been colecting and using jnats for @6-7 years. I have owned tested and sold many stones. I have read all ther is available online about them and many scientific artickes about how they formed and what thay are made of.

I think I am speaking knowingly when I say.
These stones were formed milions of years ago in an anaerobus medium...under water...the ocean floor.

When tha naory surfaved these stones were subjected to mechanical force promoting cracks in the layers.

These cracks exposed metalic minerals to air and water promoting the formation of Kawa-bark - a colourful layer of mineral oxides in the layers of the stones...this was a time consuming process.

Other reasons for crack sormation aside from oxidation of say iron to red or black feric oxide that exerts a pressure effect on the layers promoting layer separation and cracks are.

There was NO OXIDATION involved from the moment this mineral formation "arrived" to its location in Kyoto, up to you putting your blade on the stone, and if you don't leave the metal particles there too long, not even after that.

You can't further oxidize the stone, unless you use something like HF or other strong acids, following the Lewis "translation" for oxidization, acids and bases.

Anything that could be oxidized, has already.
The "kawa"/skin/iron oxide layer, it was there (or a crack was there that got filled with the oxide dissolved in the water, present in significant concentrations, that dried there, but the "it was already there" is what makes sense the most) long before the stone started to be extracted.
Yes, magnetite when oxidizes turns into ferric oxide. At really high temperatures, in the presence of oxygen of which not enough was available when the temperature was high for that formation, so, no. Again, there were no metals there to be oxidized, otherwise the metals themselves would be extracted, not the stone.

We seal the stones to stop any cracks that appear from getting larger, because without the pressure the stone had when it was "down there" that pressure did not allow these cracks to be formed, without "us" removing it from its place, to start a chain reaction where a pore becomes a crack, again from the lack of pressure and stable moisture levels.
Check out Alex's blog, it has some awesome posts on the geologic formation and more details of the above,
thejapanblade.com Blog | Sharpening Japanese Blades with Natural Japanese Stone for Care and Maintaince

Also, no, iron does not react with the acid in the stones; the type of stone is considered relatively pH neutral, with some being slightly acidic and some slightly basic; no reaction takes place. The haze is formed because of the shape and hardness of the particles, not some acidic reaction (unlike the fake "hamons" we see on some Chinese "Japanese" swords where acid is used deliberately but that's another matter)
Uchigumori IS a suita, a thin layer within the Suita found in the Ohira quarry, and the Nagura (komma along with the other coarser grades), the white stone, that one comes from another place of Japan all together.

Please don't misinform people on this; there are some who know it way better than we do, and if someone read the thread for the first time, he could think "hey, it's the oxygen, I'd better use oil on my Maruka" and that's something I don't want to happen.
It's simply not true. And again, no offense, I'm not attacking you, I'm trying to clarify the situation for anyone who doesn't know and reads this.

For these people, check out Alex's blog above, it has the information.

For the "use of oil", you can use slurry theoretically, but then you'll have to clean both the base stone, and the slurry stone/diamond plate; not an easy task.
Other than that, I agree, anyone can do as he pleases, and I wish a good day to you all

I think I got it ! Buy an expensive Jap stone and pour a quart of Quaker state oil on it . If you are not getting the results you want. Add some STP oil treatment . If the color changes just add two cups of white vinegar to neutralize the acidic properties, and you should be go to go!!!!!!!!! Just kidding guys some of these threads are to much fun to pass up .

Ok Vasilis, Lets break down your statments one by one and analize them.

1) yuo said '' There was NO OXIDATION involved from the moment this mineral formation "arrived" to its location in Kyoto, up to you putting your blade on the stone, and if you don't leave the metal particles there too long, not even after that. ''

I would like to link a few sites for reffrence

A)https://sites.google.com/site/japane...ural-whetstone

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will find a table with the mineral contents of various analised JNATS.

The table is quoted from a scientific article by Dr.of science mr. ShimaMakoto.

Lets take a few of these elements for example and do some 8th grade anorganic chemistry.

Ca(OH)2 + Fe = Ca + Fe(OH)2

https://www.chemicalaid.com/tools/eq...2B+Fe%28OH%292



What is Fe(OH)2 a precursor of rust.

Taking into consideration tere is plentyfull water...the reaction continues:

4Fe(OH)2 + O2 + 2H2O → 4Fe(OH)3

https://chemiday.com/en/reaction/3-1-0-1465

What is Fe(OH)3 ?... its what we know as rust.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

So the stone is indeed chemicaly active.
It does promote corosion.
It does oxidize the steel.

Tempered steel and crude steel respond diffrently to corosion due to diffrent cristaline structure.

Body centered cubic vs Faceted centered cubic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel

More on BCC FCC and why they corode at diffrent rates:

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...rpmtfpuM0Ot2f2


I am on call today and I am writing from my mobile.
But I will make time to provide scientific proof for each of my statements.

Vasilis, my wish is not to missinfirm but to educate.
And I only open my mouth when I can suport my statements with scientific evidence.

Personal opinions or quoting a site of a renowned stone dealer is not scientific proof.

Alex is a good man...knowledgeable but he is not a scientist. So please dont use his site as arguments.

We are talking phisics and chemistry...2 subjects I happen to be educated in.

I will bring furter scientific proof why in my personal opinion the stone is active and A LOT is going on when adding carbon steel and water to a jnat.

And I will make time to argument all that I have stated in the above posts....if there is interest in the topic.
Although I would prefer to use my time in a more productive manner.

Also think of why when hining on a jnat with slurry at first the slurry is dark black then as you work it it turns redish brown...

We know that the slurry off a JNat is acidic. I posted pH results of a couple of JNats maybe 7 years ago. Steel in an acidic solution is going to oxidize.

Yes...but I supose having some solid proof makes it easier to belive.

I have also used Ph paper in the slurry of various stones.

I have found suita...uchiguomori and koma to be some of the more gressive sluryes I have tested.