Thread: oil on Jnat

@Vasilis
2) you say the ''kawa was already there''

But I ask you this...
- How did it get there in the first place.

It we were to analyse the statement of oxides depositing into cracks of the stone on the bottom of the ocean...

Where did the oxides come from if not from the stone itself?
I'm trying to imagine water loaded with mineral oxides flowing into tiny fisures in the layers on the bottom of the ocean ... where oxigen concentration is low...presure is high and in some cases temperature is high.

The oxides did not flow into the cracks...THEY WERE BORN THERE...thats why they are bonded to the stone.

Yess i'll give you this...they may have formed on the bottom of the ocean....
But it's highly more probable they may have been formed by infiltrating water that flowed through the cracks once the deposit surfaced and was exposed to the oxigen in the air and flowing and infiltrating water under the effect of gravity. But seeing that we cant dive to the botom of the ocean in the oxigen poor zone to extract a jnat and check it for kawa...but we have proof kawa exists in an aerobus enveironment...who knows.

3) we are not talking about bonded iron...and other stable compounds.
Check the chart...there is enough free iron in there.
That free iron will oxidixe in the correct conditions its comon sense.

4) Once the stone has formed it's solid.

Taking it out from the bottom of the ocean or from the pressure of the mineral layer will not harm it.

Only harm can be done by mecanical or chemical action.
Ie explosion mining...heavy blows...oxide expansion...expansion/contraction....

If your statement were true my friend DIAMONDS would explode!

Diamonds are stones formed under tremendous pressure...and temperature...the cristaline structure of carbon...and yet it does not explode...nore does it crack without intervention if the cristaline structure is intact.


The only logical conclusion to draw here is that the more presure/heat a mineral takes in to reach a stable state..
THE MORE ENERGY IT TAKES TO TAKE IT OUT OF THAT STABLE STATE!!!

5) Lets talk cracks.

Say a stone has a crack.
If what you are saying was true and no oxidation occured.
And also if what I sayd about the reasons a stone cracks were false...ie.:
Oxide expansion.
Hidratation of the binder
Dimensional stability under heat variation by dilatation/contraction(various elements expand and xontract diffrently at the same temperature...this promotes tension in the stone and something has to give---->>>a crack is bourn)

For the love of God man think of expansion gaps on railroads and bridges...


So if all the reasons I mantioned above are false...

Ask yourself....how does a crack get bigger?!?!
Whats the phisics or chemestry behind a crack getting larger?!

6) What importance does the origin of a stone has...be it suita...uchi...koma.

We were discusing the oxidation they produce on carbon steel...the effects on the quench line ie. Hammon...and why they were specificaly used in sword polishing.

You realy think those master sword polishers used a specific progression of stones to polish the blade and bfing out the hammon that coincidently was made up of some of the most acidic stones they had?

7) Haze...
It's exactly what I said it is...shiny fresh abraded high spots that did not have time to oxidize and low dull darker spots that got oxidized...

Look at a jnat edge pic under magnification.
It pritty mutch sums it up.

What is the point of the multiple posts?

Oil vs water.

Why do we use water on whetstones anyway?

Well if you think about it:
1.Lubrication for one...steel slides easier on the stone when whed doesnt it?
2. Metal debry removal....it kind of gets the metal shavings out of the way of the abrasive particles...so cutting speed is maintained...even though new particles are exposed a dry whetstone would get clogged.
3. Cushioning...if you are familiar with the concept of laminar flow.

Why do we love to use water on whetstones...
1.its readily available.
2.its clean.
3.its cheap

Does oil have better propertyes then water?

-Well yes...theoreticaly it does.
1.provide better lubrication
2.thicker viscosity so better cushioning
3.metal debry removal...yes theoreticaly it does it better.

Providing the added benefits of:
1. stopping oxidation of carbon steels.
2.increasing cutting speed on slow stones by slowing down and preventing metal clogging of the honing surface.

Why dont we use oil...and we dont like the idea of using oil?
1.its messy
2.its not readily available
3.its not cheap
4.it's in most cases permanent....it impregnates the stone making it not work as a waterstone anymore.


Well that's all I got.
I think it's reasonable, argumented and explained.

Do I encourage the use of oil on whetstones...NO I DO NOT!

Is it possible?
Yes! For the reasons mentioned above.

Do I use oil on my whetstones...?
NO I DO NOT!
Only time I used honing oil on whetstones was when I got upset same as you on a guy talking about oil on whetstones...so I did my homework and personal testing.

Am I upset I spent 1 &1/2h of my life writing this down...
Yes and no...
Yes I am upset becaus I see many people tend to coment onnsubjects they are not knowledgeable about...they get in an argument they cant get out of...and then theybget upset onnthey guy trying to educate and bring progress to a topic.

And

No I do not feel upset...if I managed to open the mind and eyes of a single user reading what I wrote while upseting the ignorant...then it was not all for nothing.

Vasilis.
I have no issue with you.
You sustained your ideas to you best of knowledge you could. You are a good man.
My purpouse is not to upset but educate...the people that want to learn.

Have a nice day all and sorry for the freakin spam.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

Japanese people were aware of these proceses that is why they used laquer to seal the sides and ends of stones that exibited microcracking and layer separation...to prevent them from cracking.

Those ancient samurai warriors actually used lacquer ??? Possibly paint thinner to get it out of the brush. Just curious

Duuude...that's all you got out of this? ...seriously
Yes they used to use laquer on the sides and botton of the stones to protect them from cracks...some mines like Aiwatanyy even used a paint resembling the colour of the stone to seal the sides...both to protect the stone and hide various imperfections.