Thread: slurry stones vs surface stones and what is this jnatism?

provoking title with an intention: need help with a few thoughts here.

i am european based, relativly new to sharpening razors. there is a 3 year background on knives. i don t do synthetics because i don t like the feel from them, i don t do jnats because i refuse to believe that japan is the only source of good stones. i respect the knowlegde of stones those guys have, the stone themselves, their tradition aso but we have good stuff in the western hemissphere too.

i read A LOT here and elsewhere and there are some continuous ???? in my head.

i understand the concept of surface stones, tiny bits of whatever the stone is composed of cuts steal from your trusty razor/ knive. concerning this every stone that has steal cutting abilities is via definition a surface stone.

there are softer and harder stones, meaning some do autoslurry some don t, charnleys, arkansas, washitas, certain jnats...blablabla....hard stones < --- > soft stones.

slurry: speeds things up before finishing or on jnats is even used to finish, tomo i believe,whatever that means. according to tomonagura.com the base stone interferes with the slurry stone, creating a new thing.

here are my ????:

1.: it seems to me that no matter how hard/soft a jnat is, it is used with slurry, at least thats what my impression is watching keiths and other videos. there is one video where he explains, that when having a hard bench stone and a softer slurry stone you will end up sharpening mostly due to the slurry stone and vice versa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm3I1cvKZ7k

as allways he says in this vid that there is NO recipe, you have to check it out. as an osteopath i agree, no whatever you read or are beeing told can teach you better then personal hands-on expirience. but in my fields theory play an important role too.
so i wonder why it seems that this slurry thing with a few exceptions like coticules, thuringians aso is not used with classic surface stones:
- translucent arkansas stones: very hard, in theory it seems to be the ideal base for playing with corser to finer slurry (yes i know that the ark has to be well burnished then). in fact in one of his answers to the comments below his vids he says that by doing this you will mess up the edge....i don t get the why??? on that.
- charnley forest
- washitas
- artaunon
- aso

2.: to make it real simple:
i read that you can do the whole progression after/ including bevel setting with a single jnat bench stone using different slurry stones. there is an alien in my head keeping telling me that it is unlogical, that this is a japan only given feature and i would like to know if that alien is on the right side or not.

anyone has some experience/ deeper knowledge in this matter and like to share it? i really would like to read that. like for example using a tam o shanter/dalmore blue/ thuringian/ whatever non jnat slurry on a whatever non jnat bench stone. i m not asking for diamant created slurry, it s about the interaction of 2 stones here. i mean, why havn t i read a comment/ seen a vid about someone lets say using a dalmore slurry on a hard les nateuse coticule aso? doesn t it make sense or is this far of the grid?

i hope i made my ???? clear.

thank you and have a good one

It is entirely possible, though bevel setting can be done a synth or fast Washita is probably better.

Mikawa nagura are chalk-like stones (though some can be very hard indeed) that have different grits in different layers. They were originally used in sword polishing. In the 1960s, Iwasaki promoted the use of small mikawa nagura slurry stones as a sequence in razor honing. The usual sequence from coarse to fine is botan-> tenjou -> mejiro -> koma which is then followed by a tomonagura. Tomo means 'like' or 'friend' in Japanese and is a final fine slurry stone matched to the finisher.

Not all Japanese stones require slurry; some are soft enough to auto-slurry without a slurry stone, however stones this soft are almost universally too soft and coarse to finish a razor. In the jnat world, harder stones are finer. Many times you can use clear-water finishing to 'bump up' the keeness/sharpness but you just have to try it with each stone. I usually prefer a stone that's hard and fine enough to finish on thin slurry, slurry smoothes and mellows the edge.

Cheers, Steve

thank you for your answer!

i just realised, that i should have posted this post in the honing section.
if an andmin would be so kind to remove it there...thank you.

I never considered it, but I see no reason why I couldn't try nagura on a Charnley, Frankonian, Lyn Idwall, Turkish Oil Stone, or surgical black Arkansas. Those are my hardest non-JNats off the top of my head and it might be fun to try this.

Actually, come to think of it, about 5 years ago there was a craze about using various slurries on the Spyderco UF. That's another hone I have not touched for too long.

You can, but maybe not effectively with jnats ... Both myself and Alex G have transplanted jnat slurry to glass, and it 'wears out' pretty quickly. Apparently the jnat slurry 'energizes' grit from the host or base stone. I don't think that the same effect happens with jnat slurry on non-jnat stones, but please give it a try and let us know!

Cheers, Steve

What you might find from examining this issue more clearly is that slurry is just buying more stones. When you buy one larger stone and then several smaller (slurry) stones that's not really any different than just buying a large 1k and then several smaller 4k and 8k hones as is more commonly done.

You can use coticules in a similar fashion. I don't think there is a real necessity to it just like there isn't a real necessity to a Japanese tea ceremony. It just has a different vibe to it.

It also has a different result. Have you used used JNats with nagura?

Originally Posted by Utopian

It also has a different result. Have you used used JNats with nagura?

I get that slurry (depending on where it comes from) can either slow down (soften) or speed up the cutting but the end result is no different than just buying a few smaller hones and using their slurry (or not) and water.

Have you ever been to a Japanese Tea ceremony? The ritual can be quite elaborate. The tea tastes the same although some tea is a lot better than other tea.

Huh? Honing on slurry from a synthetic stone doesn't work ANYTHING like honing on slurry from a natural stone.

Originally Posted by gcbryan

Have you ever been to a Japanese Tea ceremony?

I'll answer your question right after you answer mine. Also, my question is a little more relevant.