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Thread: Shapton pro vs chosera progression

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    Default Shapton pro vs chosera progression

    Hi ,

    I am just staring out in the field of kosher slaughter. We work with knives that look very much like nakiris in terms of shape (for birds I use a 6 inch blade, for small mammals around 12 inches , and for big mammals 16 to 18 inches or so. Weighted is calibrated in order to minimize downward pressure of the blade such that if you let it it would cut in a axelike motion. We only slaughter with the full control of the human hand (so no pressure downward, just holding it up and moving back and forth). Our knives are required to be smooth and sharp, such that it can be shaved with and that the smoothness of the blade is without imperfection. I.e there are no nicks along the cutting edge , and such that when you run it along a finger nail it glides like butter without catching on a fingernail (we dont allow a nick the size of a hair being able to fit in it ).

    That's just a little background. Our knives tend to be some form of stainless steel, razor steel , really depends. Since we like a good edge retention and ease of sharpening . Really as the metal gets better we update it . I also use cpm154 which acts like a carbon steel.

    I am on the market for top notch set of splash and goes , I just have poured In 50 hours of research at least , so I have a general sense of literacy but only just as I am new to stones.

    I've found naniwa chosera (pro), naniwa gouken , of course the superstones as well.
    And from shapton the hamono no kuromaku (professional) series , which I seem to have found see more my speed than glass though I've used neither .

    I've been told that a 220, 1000, hard 6000 or soft 8000, and a 10k+ would be good I'm thinking 12k (at least to learn the sharpening system of an expert in kosher slaughter/knife maker who will teach me ).

    But then again there's a lot of knowledge out there from many countries and and different experts.

    So I've been looking at those in particular. Firstly what would you reccomend in terms of progression? I know that the Japanese use three categories in a progression . I've been reccomended by Yui Senri

    "We would recommend Chosera. #400 coarse for repairing. #1000 medium finishing for daily maintenance. #3000 for finishing"

    It seems as though the favourite is chosera . I cant really added the entire progression with chosera though if its really the best I can save up for it. So I've been leaning towards shapton pro (kuromaku) since it's a pro line and it's really cheap .

    I was interested in the naniwa gouken series and heard marvels about the 5k and 8k but I dont have access to enough data though I read every page on the net I could find .

    But the problem is that with the shapton kuromaku aka professional are tough to peg in the traditional grit rating . People have pointed out there the 1k is like an 800 chosera. And people have said that 1.5k or 2k pro =1k chosera. Then I've read at least about shapton glass that 1.5k is a good stone for most metal and 2k for carbon steel. So that equation needs to be made for 120 vs 220 vs 320 etc.

    And for the hard 6k or soft 8k same issue . So in stuck . Can you help me out with some insight ?

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    I do knives too so have a little experience with the hones for them. Don't worry about the difference in grit size between the brands unless you're going to mix brands. Shapton tends to be a little coarser in some places in the grit range but not so much at others. The grit curve doesn't have the same shape between brands. There's a chart here on SRP but I can never find it lol. Here's one from the web:

    https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/t...t-chart.20465/

    For stainless knives, especially wear-resistant steels, my choice would be the Shapton Glass HR series, the white ones. They were designed to cut the semi-stainless Lie-Neilsen A2 plane blade steel and they are very fast cutters. They will cut stainless steels like the SLD very well. The Choseras would work but they are expensive and prone to cracking, it's easy to find information on the cracking. The Shapton Pros would be a good choice too. Naniwa Superstones are also good but softer and dish fairly easily, so if you're prepping a lot of blades you're also going to need to do a lot of lapping to keep them flat if you want them flat.

    I'd try to end up at about 5k grit give or take a little, though I usually finish some of my kitchen knives a little finer on a Japanese natural. 5k makes for a slightly toothy edge that's good for vegetables with 'skins' like tomatoes, 8k is good for meat cutting though the difference may not be one that you'd necessarily want to pay for and the edge may not be quite as long lasting. There's a fellow that likes an Escher/Thuringian to finish kosher knives but if you think a Chosera is expensive an Escher will give you nightmares.

    In the HR Glass line, I'd use the 500 double thick for repairs, it's fast enough for minor chips and insults that a knife edge sees. I'm not familiar with how bad your edges get, but a 320 Pro would be a good substitute if you need a coarser stone. Follow the 500 with a 2k, then either a 4k or a 6k. In the Shapton Pro line, a 320 for repairs, follow with a 1.5k and 5k.

    With razors, I like to halve the grits in a sequence, say 2k, 4k, 8k... but knives don't have to have such a close spacing because unlike a razor, you can push much harder to get faster metal removal.

    Good luck in your search.

    Cheers, Steve
    MichaelS likes this.

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    I believe there is youtube burrfection that dodordodors comparing stones for knife sharpening. I know he loves some of the choseras but some he doesn't like for some reason. Mig but be worth checking out his channel.

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    Alright guys please bare with me as I've written a lot on this below:

    @Steve:
    Thank you for the insight . So between the glass and kuromaku, for reasons I have to recall (30-40 hours of research will some times clear the cache so to speak) I've gotten the impression that the kuros would perhaps work better for me . But I'll rehash the differences and come to a decision on that. Perhaps it was price vssimilar results or a versatility. There is talk about lack if feedback (tactile feedback I'd imagine) calls for more.research or perhaps I should mix and match.

    So you like the kuromaku (Shapton pro) 1.5k for me ? I was reading that 1.5k is for a wider range of metals and that 2k is more for carbon steel but that fundamentally they are in the same "sharpening " category (as opposed to grinding ,honing, or polishing ) . (This link sheds much needed light for the different types of knives , metals or usage that each grit was made for: https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html

    From what I gather there are three overarching categories in Japanese waterstone sharpening: "Ara-to (rough stone), the Naka-to (middle/medium stone) and, the Shiage-to (finishing stone)https://www.knifeplanet.net/best-sharpening-stones/)

    Then there are 3 grit options in each of the 3 main categories 1)grinding: 120, 220, 320 2) sharpening: 1k, 1.5k, 2k 3)honing: 5k,8k,12k , and then 1 in the polishing category (30k): (https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html)



    So I've done some more research (another 6 hours in) and I may have had an epiphany . Please let me know if this seems solid , it's mostly from reading every webpage, marketing material , info from dieter and sharpeningsupplies (etc.) and forum posts on kitchen knifemakeing , razors , honws etc, pretty much everything I could find:

    So Burffection and others were comparing the 1k chosera to the 1k kuromaku , but they didn't factor in the rest of both lines . They were saying the 1k kuromaku was more like the chosera 800. So once I looked at all of the stones and what each is meant for it occured to me that this may be more accurate : NP(naniwa pro) vs SP(shapton pro): SP1k=NP800, SP1.5k=NP1k, SP2k=NP2k.

    Now there is a 120 220 320 SP and for NP 400 600 on the lower grits. Now according to dieter Schmid "The 400-grit Professional Stone...works faster than the 220-grit [naniwa] Sharpening Stone, and is only marginally slower than the Shapton 120-grit." Onto the next grit: according to dieter Schmid and sharpeningsupplies; the 600 is a "fast cutter/removes material quickly". But recall that the SP 1k is a fast cutter/removes material quickly as well like an 800 .

    I have not yet reconciled the higher grits /finer stones . If I get the 12k for example is the 8k needed really ? And if I dont get the 8k would a 5k do the trick? Or a 8k and a 12k? Or a 5k and a 12k?


    So far I'm thinking 320(to replace the standard 220) 2k( to replace the standard 1k) 8k, 12k. Or 320 2k 5k 12k.

    Any Intel on the best splash and go for the honing category (5k, 8k, 12k) ?

    At what point do I want a 30k on the mix ? Since it technically also slums in the honing category in terms of what it can do, and the rises to enter the polishing category does it render 12k obsolete?

    Knifeplanet: https://www.knifeplanet.net/best-sharpening-stones/

    Seems to lend weight to my 320 2k selection, and it speaks highly of the 5k .

    So from what I gathered and listed above about my theory of the grit equivalency, the NP400 acts only slightly slower than the SP 120, and the SP1k acts like an NP800, so NP600 is in the middle , placing the SP220 in the middle as well but at a more aggressive type of stone whereas the NP600 would perhaps be a little more refined so it falls somewhere in between the SP220 and the SP320. Any insight to corroborate or clarify this position?

    Another point: when people discuss a blade/edge having "toothy vs polished edge" does this mean that on a microscopic level one can observe a sort of tiny serrated or jagged edge? Is this observable by touch? Like would it be rougher or catch on a fingernail of ran across it ?


    So this is where I'm holding for the most part.

    Knifeplanet: (https://www.knifeplanet.net/best-sharpening-stones/ ) writes and lists on this link that there are stones that are th best in their grit rating/category. He brings up the arashyima 6k and kitiyama 8k (how splash and go is it compared to NP and SP? Also does it really beat out any other 8k in the class ?. In Particular the SP8k? In what way? Would you classify the SP8k and the kitayama as on the harder or softer side for its class? Also I'm a bit annoyed about the attached base in the kitayama, is it detachable? How does it dish compared to the SP? Same questions for the arashiyama 6k.

    Should I mix and match? He also brings up the Np10k as being best in grit and class. Is this what you've found? I'll have to conduct more research on the higher grits .

    Would I be safe to go with 320, 2k, 8k, 12k, or 320,2k,5k,12k? Or some similar SP progression?
    Or do you think something else is in order for the uppermiddle and upper ranges ? I think I have grinding stones covered, sharpening stones covered , now I still need to figure out the honing stones and the polishing stones for both SP and NP. Thoughts?

    Thank you for reading and contributing, this all only recently starting making sense to me in a more comprehensive way. At least some basic literacy at any rate.
    Best
    Exilarch

  5. #5
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    I think that you're proposing too large a jump between some grits even for knives. 320-2k is too large, put an 800 in there. 2k to 8k is probably too large, though it may work given time on the hones. 2k-6k is more normal. You can make large jumps in grit if you have a lot of time, which you might not have if you're honing lots of blades. More tightly spaced grits = less time and more cost. More widely spaced grits = less cost and more time.

    I also understand (I think) that your goal is the quality of the final knife edge and that's more important than to most of us - I have an old saying that a pot roast never complains, but I greatly admire the kosher goal in making a knife edge.

    That said, you won't, I hope go back to a 500-800 grit stone every time a knife needs a tune up. My first knife progression was a Naniwa Superstone 1k, 5k, 10k, and if I had it to do over I'd probably put a 3k in there. I rarely went below 5k for maintaining a kitchen knife though I understand that we're not talking about the same situation.

    Cheers, Steve

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