Thread: coticule help

With synthetics it's just counting strokes resulting in a predictable unforgiving and harsh edge.

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Amen brother. My sentiments exactly. Life should be a challenge. It's what keeps us sharp.

I have 4 combination cotis - 3 natural combos and 1 glued - and 4 slurry stones - 2 natural combos, 1 slate backed and 1 hybrid combo. I sometimes use one coticule as a slurry stone and to lap another. That gives me a lot of coti/BBW combinations to hone with.

I wish I could say I was so organized that I track and record the results of each combination, but really, I mostly just grab two stones and go for it working from a medium slurry to just water. Keeps things interesting and usually results in a good to great shaving edge - COTI MAGIC!

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

This thread is the reason I went the synthetic route and have never looked back.

There is certainly nothing wrong with that!
Some can produce damn fine edges comparable to naturals.
I just the other day used my Gokumyo to redo a Barbas Duras edge that was natural prior. I can't rmember the last time I honed a razor on it - years literaly. I have kept it for comparison purposes when heavily testing years ago.
It leave a great edge for sure, the best in the Synth world IMO.

I often hone dry, which was a bit 'frowned' upon on the old coticule.be forum by some.
Not sure why though, there was another member that used his La Grise dry with great results. Just keep a light pressure when finishing.
I often finish using very light circles, because I find it easier for me to keep very little pressure instead of doing x-strokes.

I often use my vintage La Veinette (first BBW then Coticule) dry followed by a good stropping and get very good edges.
Get them used a bit dry, garnets rounded off and the stone glazed, I get very good edges.
Pressure if very important, I do many x-strokes and half strokes with normal pressure and finish with very very light pressure, works well.

I go from the BBW dry to the Coti dry, HHT is always very good, it's better off of the BBW but the Coti after adds that smoothness; followed by some good stropping and my edges are always very sharp and very smooth. Coming off the BBW they're also very sharp, but a bit harsher than if I were to finish on the Coti side.

I think it was recommended to do 40 or so laps on cotton / linen and 60 strokes on leather post-Coticule honing.

After all is said and done, I tried everything.
The one thing that always gets me THE best Coticule edges that are wicked sharp and super smooth and forgiving are using the Dilucot method.
I always get the "dull butterknife" from the Dilucot. I have a few Coticule layers that didn't suit me, but if you go by what are considered top tier Coticule layers and use those, all my edges have been nothing short of stellar.

Wicked sharp edges, I can do one pass ATG without even noticing it, very forgiving and skin friendly to boot. My favorite finisher once you get there.

Originally Posted by TristanLudloz1928273

After all is said and done, I tried everything.
The one thing that always gets me THE best Coticule edges that are wicked sharp and super smooth and forgiving are using the Dilucot method.
I always get the "dull butterknife" from the Dilucot. I have a few Coticule layers that didn't suit me, but if you go by what are considered top tier Coticule layers and use those, all my edges have been nothing short of stellar.

Wicked sharp edges, I can do one pass ATG without even noticing it, very forgiving and skin friendly to boot. My favorite finisher once you get there.

I never use slurry with Coticules. After 8k just water and with quality Coti's its always butter smooth and super keen.
I prefer synthetics to 8k before jumping to any natural. It just seems to work really well.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

I never use slurry with Coticules. After 8k just water and with quality Coti's its always butter smooth and super keen.
I prefer synthetics to 8k before jumping to any natural. It just seems to work really well.

Yeah, that indeed should work well.

I don't own any higher grits synthetics above 5K, so I have a gap to fill between that and a Coticule on plain water, I have to close it by using slurry on my Coticules and dilutions, or my BBW with slurry. But I usually set the bevel on a Les Lat or LPB with slurry and just dilute until done without any synthetics these days. The end results are the same with a dilucot or a full synthetic progression and finishing on a Coti.

But is indeed very important to go to a Coticule on only water with a maxed out keenness of the blade.

I have noticed that all my Coticules, aside from a few layers like the Les Latneuses, are very slow on water and are nothing but polishers / smoothers.
They are all slow on water.
They do NOT add any keenness on plain water. Ergo coming off a higher grit synthetic, or coming from diluting slurry is a must or a BBW with slurry.

As far as I can remember only the Les Latneuses and the La Petite Blanche are fast layers on water alone and will add a little keenness.
If a proper keenness level is not reached before going to the Coti on water, you could do 100s of strokes on only water and the edge will be smooth for sure, but will lack keenness.

Originally Posted by TristanLudloz1928273

Yeah, that indeed should work well.

I don't own any higher grits synthetics above 5K, so I have a gap to fill between that and a Coticule on plain water, I have to close it by using slurry on my Coticules and dilutions, or my BBW with slurry. But I usually set the bevel on a Les Lat or LPB with slurry and just dilute until done without any synthetics these days. The end results are the same with a dilucot or a full synthetic progression and finishing on a Coti.

But is indeed very important to go to a Coticule on only water with a maxed out keenness of the blade.

I have noticed that all my Coticules, aside from a few layers like the Les Latneuses, are very slow on water and are nothing but polishers / smoothers.
They are all slow on water.
They do NOT add any keenness on plain water. Ergo coming off a higher grit synthetic, or coming from diluting slurry is a must or a BBW with slurry.

As far as I can remember only the Les Latneuses and the La Petite Blanche are fast layers on water alone and will add a little keenness.
If a proper keenness level is not reached before going to the Coti on water, you could do 100s of strokes on only water and the edge will be smooth for sure, but will lack keenness.

Can't say that I agree, at least for me.
Water only on the Coti's I have absolutely improve keenness over a maxed out 8k. I wouldn't use them if they didn't.
I think if you are using stones for keeness that are not giving you a comfortable edge you should maybe consider different stones.
Really good Coti's produce an edge as good as any Escher or similar finisher IMO. Many Coti's can't really come close to that but the good ones can
They are not fast by any means but no worse than any other decent finisher on water. 100-150 is not too slow for the improvement I get from 8k.
3-400 on an Ark is too slow for me.
I like the 8k as a start for natural stones. It just seems like the perfect place to start to me.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

...3-400 on an Ark is too slow for me.
I like the 8k as a start for natural stones. It just seems like the perfect place to start to me.

Try doing down and back half laps in sets of 10 to 100-150 then diminish to sets of 5, 3, then 1 with 10-20 reps each and decreased pressure especially on sets of1. That 300-400 goes quicker than you would think that way and that scorching Ark edge is well worth it. If I'm doing a bevel set to finish it will be an easy 800-900 half laps which are down and back so really twice that many. I would give a time it takes but honestly I don't really know. I kind of get lost in it but it is not the hours one might expect.

EDIT: Please forgive the off topic but I just want to share the Ark love.

If you don't have one I highly recommend you get a high quality washita like a Norton No 1 and crack it loose from the box. Finish one side on 200 sic and the other to 600 w/d and use the sides like two different stones. You wouldn't believe how far that one stone will take you. I start on a calico washita which is very aggressive; almost too aggressive for razors. Some would argue it is too aggressive which is why I lap mine pretty smooth but also dual grit. This covers the equivalent of a 1k synth. From there that Norton No1 will take it all the way up to about 8k on the second/smoother side. From there the black (also dual side finish) will take that edge to smoking

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Try doing down and back half laps in sets of 10 to 100-150 then diminish to sets of 5, 3, then 1 with 10-20 reps each and decreased pressure especially on sets of1. That 300-400 goes quicker than you would think that way and that scorching Ark edge is well worth it. If I'm doing a bevel set to finish it will be an easy 800-900 half laps which are down and back so really twice that many. I would give a time it takes but honestly I don't really know. I kind of get lost in it but it is not the hours one might expect.

EDIT: Please forgive the off topic but I just want to share the Ark love.

If you don't have one I highly recommend you get a high quality washita like a Norton No 1 and crack it loose from the box. Finish one side on 200 sic and the other to 600 w/d and use the sides like two different stones. You wouldn't believe how far that one stone will take you. I start on a calico washita which is very aggressive; almost too aggressive for razors. Some would argue it is too aggressive which is why I lap mine pretty smooth but also dual grit. This covers the equivalent of a 1k synth. From there that Norton No1 will take it all the way up to about 8k on the second/smoother side. From there the black (also dual side finish) will take that edge to smoking

I appreciate the effort Paul but I just don't have the love for Arks. To me synths are the way to go to 8k for speed and quality of edge.
I do like the edges from my black Ark slipstone but still prefer a really good Coti,Jnat,Escher and other slates more.