Thread: coticule help

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

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Loved that show.
We are showing our age!

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

Can't say that I agree, at least for me.
Water only on the Coti's I have absolutely improve keenness over a maxed out 8k. I wouldn't use them if they didn't.
I think if you are using stones for keeness that are not giving you a comfortable edge you should maybe consider different stones.
Really good Coti's produce an edge as good as any Escher or similar finisher IMO. Many Coti's can't really come close to that but the good ones can
They are not fast by any means but no worse than any other decent finisher on water. 100-150 is not too slow for the improvement I get from 8k.
3-400 on an Ark is too slow for me.
I like the 8k as a start for natural stones. It just seems like the perfect place to start to me.

There namely is a difference between the smoothing out the maxed out keenness off a synthetic, and a pure Coticule edge.
Only when using a dilucot or unicot I experience a real Coticule edge.
They are very different.
The coti smooths out the edges nicely and the shave is nice and smooth and very keen coming off synthetics, but a dilucut edge is a different beast. They’re most certainty not the same edge.

Originally Posted by TristanLudloz1928273

There namely is a difference between the smoothing out the maxed out keenness off a synthetic, and a pure Coticule edge.
Only when using a dilucot or unicot I experience a real Coticule edge.
They are very different.
The coti smooths out the edges nicely and the shave is nice and smooth and very keen coming off synthetics, but a dilucut edge is a different beast. They’re most certainty not the same edge.

Well, I guess we have a different opinion of what a Coticule edge is then.
When I go to a Coticule from an 8k synth it is not even close to a "maxed out edge" yet with water alone and the Coticle I end up with a true finished edge.
When using only a Coticule from start to end you sure do end up with a different beast. I would say an absolutely inferior edge.
IMO, slurrying a stone many times(not all) creates such a rough edge that the base stone cannot recover fully from the damage created. Its like starting with a poor base - you will never achieve the same results that you would from a good base.
If you want the best results from anything you have to start with the best base you can.
This doesn't mean your final edge is not from your finish stone(Coticule) it just means you are getting the most and full potential from that stone.
Some here seem to think that to get a true stones edge you must use only that stone for it to be considered such.
I guess we are all shaving off our bevel setter and there is no such thing as a finisher unless you start with one. I just can't agree with that thinking, it makes no sense to me.
If your next or final stone improves the existing edge in terms of keeness and smoothness then your edge has been changed.
I have said many times. A one stone honing will never give the same results as a progressed edge even if you finish on the same stone. It just won't happen!

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

When using only a Coticule from start to end you sure do end up with a different beast. I would say an absolutely inferior edge.
IMO, slurrying a stone many times(not all) creates such a rough edge that the base stone cannot recover fully from the damage created. Its like starting with a poor base - you will never achieve the same results that you would from a good base.

It's different, I wouldn't call it inferior; but that's to each their own.
The Dilucut and proper slurry consistency and the garnets in the Coticule will not leave a rough edge that cannot be recovered from.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

This doesn't mean your final edge is not from your finish stone(Coticule) it just means you are getting the most and full potential from that stone.

The finish will indeed be from the Coticule, but I don't believe you are getting the full potential from that stone by coming off of synthetics first, at all. But again, to each their own.
You like synthetic characteristics in your shave and that's fine. For me the full potential lies in a true one stone hone on the Coticule. You find that to give an inferior edge and I find it the other way around. That's fine.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

I guess we are all shaving off our bevel setter

That seems to be true. There is a difference between a full Dilucot setting the bevel on the Coti or setting it on a synthetic and fine tuning it on the Coti.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

If your next or final stone improves the existing edge in terms of keeness and smoothness then your edge has been changed.
I have said many times. A one stone honing will never give the same results as a progressed edge even if you finish on the same stone. It just won't happen!

Your edge has indeed changed, how much? I don't know, but most Coticule veins are rather slow on water, so the change will not be huge. But it will get smoothed out nicely.
My shaves off of synthetics finished on the Coti are smooth and very sharp.
My shaves off of a Dilucot, including a bevel set, shave like dull butterknife, equally sharp as the one above but more skin friendly and forgiving.
I certainly agree that it's not the the same, it will be different.

My favourite progression involves Coticules:

- bevel set on Naniwa Chosera 1k
- Coticule dilucot (plenty of thick slurry, keeping the slurry in front of the edge as far as possible, three dilutions)
- strop on linen
- Coticule dilucot as above but with fewer strokes
- strop on linen
- yellow green Thuringian on water
- strop on leather

I'm fortunate to have synthetics up to the Gok 20k, Jnats, Charnleys, Arks and others, as well as Coticules - but nothing has so far matched the above for closeness of shave and face comfort. Maybe my Ozuko with Mikawa naguras on a good day. I've tried synthetics up to 10k with coticule/water as a finisher: good progression and shave but not even close to the above Dilucot for my face. Coticule in the mid range is unequalled IMHO. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by MichaelS

My favourite progression involves Coticules:

- bevel set on Naniwa Chosera 1k
- Coticule dilucot (plenty of thick slurry, keeping the slurry in front of the edge as far as possible, three dilutions)
- strop on linen
- Coticule dilucot as above but with fewer strokes
- strop on linen
- yellow green Thuringian on water
- strop on leather

I'm fortunate to have synthetics up to the Gok 20k, Jnats, Charnleys, Arks and others, as well as Coticules - but nothing has so far matched the above for closeness of shave and face comfort. Maybe my Ozuko with Mikawa naguras on a good day. I've tried synthetics up to 10k with coticule/water as a finisher: good progression and shave but not even close to the above Dilucot for my face. Coticule in the mid range is unequalled IMHO. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

That's a nice progression!
i'd imagine that work on thick slurry really determines the bevel.
If a lot of work needs to be done I also get my 1K naniwa out until the bevel is set. I then "dull" it on glass and reset the bevel on a Coti and do a full Dilucot.
I also used to finish on my Eschers, but I sold them all since I acquired some stones from my now favourite Coticule vein.
I do remember a decade ago I came off my Dilucot and worked slurry and dilutions on my Eschers, those shaves were divine!

It's different, I wouldn't call it inferior; but that's to each their own.

My shaves off of a Dilucot, including a bevel set, shave like dull butterknife, equally sharp as the one above but more skin friendly and forgiving.

How is this not inferior?
I am refering to the coticule edge as it pertains to finishing.
Potential in the terms of range then yes your way will give more, but you won't end up with a killer coticule edge as you have yourself said - like a dull butter knife.

My point has nothing to do with synthetics but rather having a good base for that final coticule on water finish that is both sharp and smooth. You can use whatever you want to get there but I don't think that a slurried coticule is the base to do that.

Your edge has indeed changed, how much? I don't know, but most Coticule veins are rather slow on water, so the change will not be huge. But it will get smoothed out nicely.

This is where I am saying that the change is huge and the stone, if a very good one will do that.

Coticules can be great work horses but I am only talking about finishing with them and how to get the most out of them that way.

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

How is this not inferior?
I am refering to the coticule edge as it pertains to finishing.
Potential in the terms of range then yes your way will give more, but you won't end up with a killer coticule edge as you have yourself said - like a dull butter knife.

Oh, I see, but for me the dull butterknife is a perfect edge. It only feels like it, but it shaves as well as anything I have ever experienced.
I get edges from my Coticules that are equally sharp than an Escher or a 20K. But it's so forgiving and friendly on the skin it feels like shaving with a dull butterknife.

Owkay, I agree the term a dull butterknife is not a good choice of works. I'm not native english speaker. The feeling is more like a hot knife through butter. Effortless and smooth. It doesn't feel dull when shaving the whiskers, but it feels dull to my skin as if I have not shaved at all.

You get away with using too much pressure without any damage or irritation to your skin.
That was not meant do describe my edge as inferior, it's the big advantage of the Coticule.
I really like that feeling it provides and how my skin feels post shave.

Granted I do get less keen edges from some veins, but the ones widely regarded as the "better" veins easily provide plenty of sharpness.