Thread: Does anyone NOT like Nakayama Edges?

p.s. Here is a photo comparison to explain what i'm talking about. I have the two stones to compare and the photo's are 100% accurate. Under a scope, that is what the difference in the edges is.

http://thejapanblade.com/test.htm

Originally Posted by Visibility

If I had the choice between the Nakayama and the s30k strictly for razors I would choose the Nak all day.

It works much different. Under the scope the edge is much finer. A much more even finishing, which ironically is due to the randomness of particle size.

I also do not strop on paste after I use it. A couple passes on the felt/diamond spray combo and it's good.

I don't end up using it like a regular stone, I do a fast crayon coloring type motion which would equal a lot of passes. But my particular stone is very hard and slow cutting. Is it "magical"?..well, at the very least it's pretty damn special and considering a shapton 30k is in the $250 range, if you were only using it for razors I would spring for the Nakayama instead.

JimR, I would let you borrow my Nak if I wasn't using it all the time cuz I love it so much

That's a very kind thought...I actually have one already that I'm just getting used to. I also plan to have another by the end of October. Heck, but next week if I figure out what I'm doing!

Originally Posted by Visibility

p.s. Here is a photo comparison to explain what i'm talking about. I have the two stones to compare and the photo's are 100% accurate. Under a scope, that is what the difference in the edges is.

TEST#1

That's what half-micron scratches look like at 25x? Color me incredulous.

Verhoeven's paper has photos taken with an electron microscope, of blades honed on a variety of substances, including an 8,000 grit waterstone and 0.5 micron chrome oxide, that have scratches finer than that. At 3000x. And another member recently took his own photos with an electron microscope at similar resolution with similar results -- barely-visible submicron scratches, even at that extreme resolution.

I don't doubt that those 25x photos are of the blades in question, honed with the stones in question. But they simply don't show what they purport to show. Slight differences in lighting angle can dramatically effect what shows up in an optical micrograph. The bevels are shiny and the scratch patterns are fairly regular and this causes all sorts of wierd specular effects. I can take an edge with the fabled "black glass" finish and move the light a few degrees and suddenly all sorts of nasty scratches show up. Move it a few more degrees and a completely different finish shows up.

Originally Posted by JimR

And, can someone tell me what a Nakayama edge feels like to them? I know it's probably hard to put into words...but I'm curious about the experiences.

I'm still a novice at honing an edge from scratch, but I play around a lot with different polishers once I have a shaving edge. I'll re-polish the same razor with a different stone after several shaves, just to tune and compare them. I switched from DE to straight shaving primarily because the idea of honing my own custom shaving edge with my own hands was very appealing to me. Honing can be VERY frustrating when isn't working, but I always find the final polishing stage to be very relaxing. And natural stones just fascinate me.

In my experience so far, the Nakayama-honed edge isn't magically different from other final polishers in smoothness. Good Coticules, Peoples' Hones of Indeterminate Grit (love that), Thuringians, and even Chrome Ox can all produce very smooth-shaving edges. But the Nakayamas are unique in keeping that smoothness while adding another level of sharpness. It's noticeable to me in edge-testing and shaving. Like the difference in a well-polished edge right off the hone, and that same edge after stropping - sharper and sweeter.

In terms of comparison, I bought a Charnley Forest from Sham via the Classifieds recently, and it gives my Nakayamas a solid run for their money in both smoothness and sharpness. But for me the CF requires many more strokes to get there, provides less feedback to guide me, and requires the razor to be at a higher level of sharpness to start with before it can take it further. But the edges I'm getting with it are killer, on par with Nakayamas.

Well I own most of those stones he is using, and have a microscope, (not the pocket kind, though I have that too) and I see the same thing that he has photographed. I have no alliance to that guy, I don't even know who he is, but thos pictures show pretty accurately the difference in sctratch pattern. DO you have a couple to check?

I understand what you are saying about the angles, but all things being equal, the s30k produces a much rougher edge when magnified. The Nakayama particles are always breaking down, you are getting particles much finer than the shaptons and that process just keeps continuing the longer you hone, it's just in effect a higher grit stone. Mine in particular is so high I use the 30k before it, not because I necessarily need to, it just makes the time on that stone less because it's so damn hard and cuts so slow.

I'm not dissing shapton at all, I have their whole set and sold everything else I had except for the lapping film. Their DGLP is the best lapping plate I've ever seen. I've been to Harrelson's house, walked through his workshop and seen his collection of blades. I sing their praises from the rooftops.

I won't be getting rid of my 30k cuz I love it so much and it's useful in applications that the nakayama just isn't. I do more than sharpen razors though. A tool for every job...and for razor applications, the nakayama has an edge over the shapton. <1 point for funny pun!

Originally Posted by mparker762

That's what half-micron scratches look like at 25x? Color me incredulous.

Verhoeven's paper has photos taken with an electron microscope, of blades honed on a variety of substances, including an 8,000 grit waterstone and 0.5 micron chrome oxide, that have scratches finer than that. At 3000x. And another member recently took his own photos with an electron microscope at similar resolution with similar results -- barely-visible submicron scratches, even at that extreme resolution.

I don't doubt that those 25x photos are of the blades in question, honed with the stones in question. But they simply don't show what they purport to show. Slight differences in lighting angle can dramatically effect what shows up in an optical micrograph. The bevels are shiny and the scratch patterns are fairly regular and this causes all sorts of wierd specular effects. I can take an edge with the fabled "black glass" finish and move the light a few degrees and suddenly all sorts of nasty scratches show up. Move it a few more degrees and a completely different finish shows up.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

See... It was funny

My wife has been saving newspapers for years. She thinks I am going to shred them and use them as mulch for her garden.

Little does she know that this is an important part of my retirement plan. I plan (when they become scarce) to sell them on eBay to straight razor users who haven't planned ahead.

I just wish I could walk through the living room.

You know how CrOx is supposed to make you edges feel nicer coimg off you finishing stone? That is what the Nakayama does coming off the CrOx. It just adds more smoothness.

Originally Posted by Visibility

Well I own most of those stones he is using, and have a microscope, (not the pocket kind, though I have that too) and I see the same thing that he has photographed. I have no alliance to that guy, I don't even know who he is, but thos pictures show pretty accurately the difference in sctratch pattern. DO you have a couple to check?

Sure. I have a couple of microscopes as well. And I see similar sorts of scratches, depending on the angle of the light. But what I'm seeing are *not* the scratches from the shapton 30k - they're the scratches from the lower-grit hones, brought into sharp relief by the polishing action of the shapton which polishes the tops of the high ridges. In the photos you linked to, notice that in the shapton shot there are large, fairly contiguous areas on that bevel that look a bit flattened and polished, where the grooves aren't as prominent. There are three irregular bands of these going across the length of the bevel, one at the very edge that may be a microbevel, and two more farther back on the bevel. One or all of those bands is likely where the shapton is honing - my suspicion is it's the one at the edge itself, because...

The nakayama-finished blade actually has a rougher edge - don't look at the bevel, look at the edge itself - there is a distinct regular sawtooth pattern on the nakayama edge that isn't present on the S30k edge. This again demonstrates pretty solidly that neither the nakayama nor shapton edges were effectively sharpened on those hones, and that the edges are still hopelessly compromised by the remnants of their 1k honing striations. Verhoeven demonstrated in his paper that when viewed under an electron microscope, blades only show a regular sawtooth pattern up to about 2k grit, beyond that the edge gets thin enough that the steel at the edge is simply too weak to sustain the sawteeth. When I compare edge roughness between hones, I set the lighting and contrast so that only the reflection off the edge shows up, this reduces the distraction of the bevel appearance since all you have to look at is the thin white line interrupted by the occasional microchip. Any sawtooth pattern that is showing up means that I need to go back to the 4k or 8k hone and clean things up before going back to the finishing steps.

The real reason the nakayama bevel looks "finer" is the loose particles in the slurry are rolling around underneath the bevel and leave behind a finish that under magnification looks like it's been sandblasted, and this changes the way the light reflects off the surface minimising the appearance of the underlying low-grit scratches. If those edges had been honed properly then neither razor would show any grooving pattern at all at that magnification, there would be no sawtooth pattern at the edge. From looking at those partially-honed bands on the S30k picture, you might predict that the properly-honed S30k bevel would look like a mirror (and you would be right), and from looking at the sandblasted-grooves on the Nakayama picture you might predict that the Nakayama bevel would look like a sandblasted mirror (and you would also be right).

Originally Posted by Visibility

I understand what you are saying about the angles, but all things being equal, the s30k produces a much rougher edge when magnified. The Nakayama particles are always breaking down, you are getting particles much finer than the shaptons and that process just keeps continuing the longer you hone, it's just in effect a higher grit stone. Mine in particular is so high I use the 30k before it, not because I necessarily need to, it just makes the time on that stone less because it's so damn hard and cuts so slow.

Sorry, but unless you've got a microscope at least 1,000x, then what you're seeing aren't the scratches from the nakayama or shapton, and I'm doubtful that even at 1000x that an optical microscope could resolve scratches of this size.

Secondly, while it's true that the particles from the Nakayama are always breaking down, it's also true that new large particles are always coming out. So this isn't a win-win scenario - those small broken-down particles may well be smaller than the ones on the Shapton30k, but those new fresh particles coming out are larger than the ones in the Shapton. And I've never heard anyone claim that the particles in the Shapton don't break down. Certainly on mine it gets finer and finer over repeated uses after I've lapped it, which makes me think that the abrasives are breaking down as well.

Originally Posted by Visibility

I'm not dissing shapton at all, I have their whole set and sold everything else I had except for the lapping film. Their DGLP is the best lapping plate I've ever seen. I've been to Harrelson's house, walked through his workshop and seen his collection of blades. I sing their praises from the rooftops.

I won't be getting rid of my 30k cuz I love it so much and it's useful in applications that the nakayama just isn't. I do more than sharpen razors though. A tool for every job...and for razor applications, the nakayama has an edge over the shapton.

I don't think you're dissing shapton, I just don't believe that those photos you linked to are particularly useful except as a negative example.

I get similar levels of sharpness out of my shapton 30k and nakayama asagi. If either is superior it isn't by much, certainly not enough to worry about since there are ways of getting much higher levels of sharpness. So if I'm going for sharpness I really don't care if the nakayama is 10% or even 30% better than the shapton, because the edge is only gonna be there for the few minutes it takes to haul out the newspaper or 0.1 micron diamond or 0.05 micron aluminum oxide.

Originally Posted by mparker762

I must be missing something. What's the joke?

I buy mine from the local coin-op newspaper box. Houston Chronicle. The classified or some page with lots of b/w photos works best.

The edges you can get off of a Japanese newspaper are much more refined than that off of domestic newspapers. I think it has to do with the orientation of the kanji....

Originally Posted by Seraphim

The edges you can get off of a Japanese newspaper are much more refined than that off of domestic newspapers. I think it has to do with the orientation of the kanji....

Or the way the rice paper breaks down with use...