Thread: Does anyone NOT like Nakayama Edges?

Thanks for that contribution Bart. Excellent post

One thing about Japanese hones that hasn't been mentioned I believe is that similiar to coticules the grit size of the particles isn't really that relevant. Japanese hones have crystals which are similiar in shape to a potato chip that is why they create shallower cuts and also a flatter surface this is also the reason why they cut so fast instead of creating grooves they actually slice of any peaks that may be formed first and then just continue to flatten the bevel reducing its thickness rather than creating lots of grooves. I guess you could say that if you ran a fork through the top of a piece of butter it would do the same thing as some hones with sharp edges like diamonds and slicing the top off with a knife would be the same as using a japanese hone.

Originally Posted by Memorael

One thing about Japanese hones that hasn't been mentioned I believe is that similiar to coticules the grit size of the particles isn't really that relevant. Japanese hones have crystals which are similiar in shape to a potato chip that is why they create shallower cuts and also a flatter surface this is also the reason why they cut so fast instead of creating grooves they actually slice of any peaks that may be formed first and then just continue to flatten the bevel reducing its thickness rather than creating lots of grooves. I guess you could say that if you ran a fork through the top of a piece of butter it would do the same thing as some hones with sharp edges like diamonds and slicing the top off with a knife would be the same as using a japanese hone.

Very interesting. I didn't know that. I often ponder about abrasive particles and how shallowness of the scratches is more important than the width of the scratches. Coticules kind of offer proof of that, but I was unaware similar observations can be made for Nakayamas.

Thanks,
Bart.

Interesting visual there

Originally Posted by Memorael

One thing about Japanese hones that hasn't been mentioned I believe is that similiar to coticules the grit size of the particles isn't really that relevant. Japanese hones have crystals which are similiar in shape to a potato chip that is why they create shallower cuts and also a flatter surface this is also the reason why they cut so fast instead of creating grooves they actually slice of any peaks that may be formed first and then just continue to flatten the bevel reducing its thickness rather than creating lots of grooves. I guess you could say that if you ran a fork through the top of a piece of butter it would do the same thing as some hones with sharp edges like diamonds and slicing the top off with a knife would be the same as using a japanese hone.

That's a very interesting explanation. I'm no expert, by any stretch, but this seems to explain what I see in my microscope.

I would say i am not the expert on this hones .i have used 6 of them. My opinion is this. if you give japan stone and ask the child hone this metal they can do it.
I have seen fast cutter, slow cutter and medium cutter.
i had fast cutter and gives very nice edge
had slow cutter and need to do at least 60-100 laps to get something but end was excellent edge.
Finally i have been given a big size hone by GUNNER 777 This stone took out of my rotation 2 hones.
Norton 8k and barber hone.
i never used 30000k shapton and i can't say anything about it or compare them to anything what i have.
I think they are great hones and wish price was cheap. In the other hand if you are looking for the edge which will satisfied you then sorry you need pay price too.
hope this helps.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I would say i am not the expert on this hones .i have used 6 of them. My opinion is this. if you give japan stone and ask the child hone this metal they can do it.

....

Not all Japanese stones are created equal, as we all know. Those of us who like them and use them regularly sometimes cannot understand how or why others find them difficult to use. However, I vividly remember my email discussions with So Yamash-ita when I went to buy my "good" stone.

So and his father have a tonne of knowledge about Jnats. I was put through the wringer - what steel? how much experience did I have? how was I going to use it? etc. In the eyes of the experts, Jnats are not something to enter into lightly, and many a man has spent their entire life studying and perfecting the use of them in Japan. The stones are as many and varied as people, and blanket statements regarding their suitability for a particular purpose are dangerous.

James.

I remember talking to So awhile after I had gotten mine, and he mentioned the recent surge of guys over here buying them for razors and how surprised he was that we were having as much success with them as we were. He was of the opinion that you had to be a very top-notch honer with years of experience to get any value out of them.

I think the fact that we get first-hand experience with the sharp end of the blade each single morning probably helps us refine our honing skills more quickly than a guy who can only judge the quality of his edge second-hand, by how it feels on wood. So was skeptical of this theory, but I think it nonetheless has merit.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Not all Japanese stones are created equal, as we all know. Those of us who like them and use them regularly sometimes cannot understand how or why others find them difficult to use. However, I vividly remember my email discussions with So Yamash-ita when I went to buy my "good" stone.

So and his father have a tonne of knowledge about Jnats. I was put through the wringer - what steel? how much experience did I have? how was I going to use it? etc. In the eyes of the experts, Jnats are not something to enter into lightly, and many a man has spent their entire life studying and perfecting the use of them in Japan. The stones are as many and varied as people, and blanket statements regarding their suitability for a particular purpose are dangerous.

James.

As i said in my Early Post i cannot say i do have a lot experience and have tried every single Japan hones out there.
But i would say.
Every single of them i have tried i am VERY VERY SATISFIED .
Now what happen when i use them i check the edge and see my progression.
None of them has been low quality hones.
There have been differences among them in cutting Speed that is all.
I say now if anyone doesn't like their Japan stones i am in here to grab it and say a big Thank you.
In My honing Experience Japan hones has been easiest and honer friendly ones. They are so easy to use i would go head and say easier then Norton.
I am willing to hear all opinions About bad experiences you people having out there. I could help you or learn myself.
hope this help.

I should go head and say this.
In many cases i have seen people saying they talk with someone(or read some where ) and that person said he had this experience etc etc.
My advise Please guys

Do experience by yourself and then talk about.

Doesn't matter that experience is a lot or less but at least that has done with your hands and front of your eyes.
Thank you for reading this long post. Sorry sometimes i ended up typing too much

In my personal experience the easiest hone to use would be the spyderco ultrafine. Back when I didn't know how to hone I remember getting this hone because it was supposedly a really high grit so I tried it and voila the first HHT was passed and as I recall the shave was stupendous yet that is only my memory since I know that the shaves I get off right now are just sublime compared to those back then. Now that I consider myself an ok honer I have to say that my jnat is also really easy to use. Maybe then like So said getting to know how to use one takes years of experience means we still have further to go and Jnats can get way sharper or maybe they only work that way on japanese straights??? I really can't tell anything else rather than my Jnat is the first stone I have used that gave me a too sharp to shave off from feeling. So now I am working on my shaving technique rather than honing working my edges on coticules and crox. I still get the too sharp to shave feeling with crox but not so sharp as my JNAT giving me the perfect balance to work on my shaving technique and not surprisingly my facial hair takes way longer to grow now than it did before which means my skill is improving IMHO.