Thread: Slate backed German yellow razor stones?

You're breaking my heart, internet!

"Almandite garnet crystals are found in a quartzose mica schist about 1.6 km west of Chelsea in Delaware County. Near the surface the schist is badly weathered and the garnets, which comprise as much as 75% of the rock locally but average much less, are easily recovered. Abrasive-grade garnet was produced from this deposit prior to 1900, but no production has been recorded since the turn of the century."

Nah, don't let your heart be broken that easily. 'Abrasive grade garnet' sounds like garnet particles for use in abrasive compounds. Doesn't mean anything as far as the suitability of the matrix, their size, or their size range is concerned. Be glad they didn't mine it, or those rocks would all have been ground to dust.

Now, abrasive grade slate would be a different matter altogether... Since there was only brief exploitation, we can still hope someone finds that out there.

Originally Posted by IanS

You're breaking my heart, internet!

"Almandite garnet crystals are found in a quartzose mica schist about 1.6 km west of Chelsea in Delaware County. Near the surface the schist is badly weathered and the garnets, which comprise as much as 75% of the rock locally but average much less, are easily recovered. Abrasive-grade garnet was produced from this deposit prior to 1900, but no production has been recorded since the turn of the century."

Agreed. Don't be discouraged. Who knows, maybe you'll go there, stumble upon an outcrop showing the vein/s and maybe it will be sticking out of some farmer's field. You'll finagle the farmer to sell you the acre of land surrounding and including that outcrop and you'll be in business. If anything else a seasonal side business. Hey, I'd do it.

Chris L

Apologies for steering this thread away from it's original course but I just wanted to ask Bart, if you are familiar with any other references regarding the hone from Lorraine that you mentioned? Bomare mentioned what he described as a fair razor hone from Lorraine, but I have been nable to find out anything more about it. One thing I did turn up was a reference to a Lorraine Oilstone, I believe this to be the red hone that you mention, but I don't know if it is the same as Bomare's razor hone. The Lorraine Oilstone seems to be quite highly regarded, certainly better than fair, but I have been unable to establish a history of razor use with it. Therefore I really don't know if there are two hones from Lorraine, or whether the excellent oilstone makes only a fair razor hone.

As far as the Levant/ Turkey Hone is concerned, I have been doing a lot of research on this stone as of late, but the more I find out the more confused I'm becoming. The Levant hone is first identified by Pliny in the very early Christian era, and most later researchers agree that he was most likely referring to the hone that would later become known as the Turkey Hone. In Pliny's time the stone seems to have only recently been bought to notice as he mentions that the reputation of the Naxian hone had only recently been surpassed by the Levant Hone (on a side note, the village of Elounda on Crete is a source of whetstones that have been called both Naxian and Turkey stone at different times). The major problem with accurately identifying a genuine Turkey Hone, is that the Arts adopted the name Turkey Hone as a general term for any fine hone, and later on it became synonymous with Novaculite. Therefore we have hones from all over the world that are identified as Turkey Stone, including hones from: High Halden, Kent, in England: the Caernarvonshire Hills of Wales; Claire Island in Eire; Belchertown, Massachusetts and Cape Grim in Tasmania as well as a number of different hones from France and Italy all known as Turkey Hones. In the Annual Report of the Geological Survey of Arkansas, Griswold notes many early authors who identify Turkey Hones as coming from areas outside Turkey. Even within Turkey, or the confines of the Ottoman Empire at least, there is some question as to where exactly the hones come from. At various times the sources have been given as Constantinople by Linnaeus, the interior of Asia Minor and bought down to Smyrna for sale by Knight, the island of Crete and one author simply says they were bought from Turkey and processed in Marseilles. Following Knights Catalogue, most authors simply repeat his description of the stone being quarried in the interior of Asia Minor and sold from Smyrna.

Given this confusion as to the exact origin of the Turkey Stones, it is also quite difficult to identify what a genuine Turkey Hone is, both petrologically and in more general terms of it's characteristics and usage. It is certainly not the same as Novaculite, nor does it bear any resemblance to the more general grouping of clay slate. It has been suggested that the hone is a chert, but this has been refuted by many researchers. It is generally agreed that the Turkey Hones are either black or white, and of a brittle nature being generally compromised by fissures in the rock. It cuts even the hardest steel, but there are question marks over the degree of fineness. English metallurgist, master cutler and chemist (or Natural Philosopher as they were called back then), Stoddart noted that the Turkey Hone was never found very fine, but other authors treat it as being among the finest of hones. There are references to a green Turkey Hone that was said to be especially fine, and there was a white hone presumed to be either from Cyprus or Crete, that was treated a Turkey Hone and was used for finishing razors. If indeed it did come from Crete it could be considered as being from Turkey as the island was part of the Ottoman Empire. I have also seen references to a Red Turkey Oilstone, so there is some doubt as to the identity of the Turkey Hone based on it's colour, as stones that are called Turkey are not always black or grey/white.

My apologies for going on for so long, but I just wanted to clarify some of the confusion surrounding the identity and origins of the Turkey Hone.

Kindest regards,
Alex

I have a Turkey stone that is definitely "genuine" in the sense that it's a grey-white, visibly brittle natural stone mined in Turkey (the mine's stamp has Turkish writing which I can post if people are interested – it might help to place where these stones are quarried).

I acquired it recently and haven't experimented extensively with it. What I can say is that it cuts very quickly, producing metal swarf in a few strokes, and that the edge it leaves is very sharp but not particularly smooth in terms of face-feel. I follow it with a Thuringian.

I have nowhere near the research under my belt that A.S., Bart, and a few others here have. But I've read the various references to the Turkey stone in the 19th- and early 20th-century encyclopedic literature on honing stones. I've assumed that the great reverence for this stone in the 19th century is due to the fact that it cuts very quickly and fairly finely; it would make very short work of putting a keen edge on tools, especially if your other options were Arkansas stones or Scotch hones. My corollary assumption is that interest in this stone waned in the 20th century when cheap synthetics doing much the same thing became widely available.

I like mine very much, and it would definitely interest SRPers who want to set bevels with a natural (often an elusive quest). But as a finisher it doesn't rival eschers, coticules, and so on.

Is there any chance of a picture, dylandog? Thanks for another great thread all.

Originally Posted by AlanII

Is there any chance of a picture, dylandog? Thanks for another great thread all.

Yes, I'll take some when I'm home and post them.

I should say that judging from the stamp, my stone was fairly recently quarried. And yet it fits the descriptions of Turkey hones in the old literature to a T. My take on Turkey stones (I'm always ready to be set straight by the true hone scholars here) is that they are not a mythical stone from some long-lost or now-depleted quarry; rather, they're just a very useful natural stone that – in an age of cheap, widely available, and versatile artificial whetstones – is no longer in much demand internationally. (They are notoriously brittle – something noted both in the old literature and by those of us here who use them – and therefore probably not easy and inexpensive to ship and sell worldwide.)

Originally Posted by A_S

Apologies for steering this thread away from it's original course but I just wanted to ask Bart, if you are familiar with any other references regarding the hone from Lorraine that you mentioned?

Prof. dr. E. Goemaere, C. Mullard, Ir. X Devleeschouwer et Ir. J Grogna.
in "Geology de L'ardoise et du Coticule en Terre de Salm" (published by the Service Geologique the Belgique in 2008)

"La Veine Lorraine (Schiste Bleu à Grenats, mais qui ne peut être appelé Coticule) mesure plus de 20cm dans le gisement Regné - Hébronval - Ottré et 60 à 80cm au Gisement Thier del Preu - Thier du Mont."

Translated:
"The Lorraine vein (a Blue Schist with garnet content, that can't be called Coticule) measures over 8" at the Regné - Hébronval - Ottré deposit and 23 to 31" at the Thier del Preu - Thier du Mont deposit."

So now we know it's one of the BBW layers, but which one? I can answer that question too, because the book holds drawings that show a cross section of the deposits.
"La Lorraine" is sandwiched between the Coticule layer named "Les Petas" and the Coticule Layer called "L'allemande" (which means "the German" probably just for the sake of confusing us even more than we already are.)
But it's more complicated than that, because all these layers are subdivided in sub layers, and La lorraine itself is sandwiched between unnamed BBW layers. (So you'll never find a combo Coticule-Lorraine)

Further reading in various sources learns that La Lorraine was mainly sold to woodworkers, carpenters, cabinetmakers, etc. It was also sold as "Pierre à faulx", which means "stone to hone out defects". It 's a kind of very fast BBW (with reddish hue). I'm almost certain that the so called "Salmon Rouge" is the same thing. If I recall correctly, I believe Howard of ThePerfectEdge said he owns one.

I can also tell you something about the current situation, as I have some idea about the status of Ardennes' quarry and their mine. At the quarry, they are extracting rocks from the front to the back, till a certain depth. As "La Lorraine" is part of a section near the front of the quarry, I'm pretty sure the rock was harvested long time ago, possibly during the Burton era. (Ardennes Coticule's predecessor). At the moment, they're extracting the back of the deposit. But Maurice (the owner) told me they might go deeper, when the back is fully processed. At that point, they'll be digging at the front of the deposit again. Maybe we'll see new "La Lorraines" at that moment.
In the mine at Regne, it's a different situation, because you get only access to something if you excavate a gallery to it. Maurice told me they have galleries nearby "La Verte" and "La Grise", which both are layers of the far end of the deposit. That information makes me doubt they're going to have access to "La Lorraine" at Regné anytime soon.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I found a reference to the German Razor Hone from Ratisbon in volume 21 of The Mechanical News, published in 1892. Whilst most sources state that the Razor Hone, and the Blue and Grey polishing stones also supposed to be found in the area, occur in the slate mines in the mountains, Mechanical News says that the deposit is found in an old river bed in the proximity of the city. Whilst a couple of threads lately have highlighted the confusion between where a hone is found and where it is processed/ shipped from, the more precise location given in this account gives me pause to think that there may have been a source of razor hones near Ratisbon. Are there any forum members near enough to check this out?

Kindest regards,
Alex

Ok, now that I have found that Ratisbon IS Regensburg I'll try of course!