Thread: Chinese and Coticule

There are two types of Belgians, the Belgian Blue (aka Belgian Blue Whetstone aka BBW) and the Belgian coticule (which is yellow in color). Belgian stones have been used for centuries, but for most of this time only the yellow coticule was used. So most of the time if you just see a generic reference to "Belgian razor hone" or "Belgian waterstone" or any similar variation thereof, what's being talked about is the coticule.

Rick, if you'll allow me to be so bold, I think some of your confusion stems from the fact that you're looking at all these options as if you were leafing through a company catalog. In that frame of mind it seems illogical that there are so many options, so many different tools with so many different names doing much the same thing, etc. You have to remind yourself that these are not products put out by a company but natural stones that have been quarried for centuries in different parts of the world. The internet makes them all available at the click of a mouse and yes, their uses are often overlapping and there's some redundancy there, but being dumbfounded by this is like being dumbfounded by the fact that in the year 2010 you can go to the supermarket and buy Chinese noodles or Italian ones or even German ones and hey, what's the difference? Is it just preference? Well yes, I guess, but.... it also sort of depends on what you're cooking.

Again, the pros and cons:

Coticules
pro: versatility (workhorse sharpening, good finishing, and sometimes even bevel-setting)
con: expensive

Chinese
pro: excellent finishers (some say even better than coticules), very cheap and readily available in large sizes (an 8"x3" costs ~$35, versus $200-$250 for an 8"x3" coticule)
con: slow, not versatile (can be used only for finishing)

Good luck whatever you decide to do. My advice is not to overthink it in advance. If you choose one of the tried-and-true setups, you'll get the help you need here to make it work.

There are two elements to the stone in question. The grit and the abrasive. Grit is the size of the abrasive and the abrasive itself has properties based on its shape and "hardness".

I have not seen a post that states what the C12K abrasive is. The coticule is covered in the links above.

Other popular finishers, both natural and synthetic, are Eschers, Thuringians, Naniwa Super Stone, Naniwa Chosera, and Shapton Glass Stones.

Originally Posted by rickboone

Oh, and Holli4Pirating...okay so a Japanese stone, Chinese and coticule are all "natural" stones in that they come from the earth. But, what then are the differences? From that I've seen a 12K is a finishing/ polishing stone (trying to figure out difference in those terms), yet while a cotiucle cannot be rated per se (not sure why b/c a Chinese natural can) it's based on guess of the user, I've seen those guesses in the 10K and up range. So, their "grit" or rating of whatever that is is in the same range. Do they not do the same job? What am I missing? Just preference?

Thanks all!

There are lots of different natural hones from different places around the world. They cover a wide range of grits and cutting speeds. They can be used with or without slurry; slurry makes them cut more aggressively and quicker, while without will give a finer finish. None can be given exact grit ratings because they cut based on the shape of the abrasives, the hardness of the abrasives, the way the abrasives are held together, and the way the abrasives are released. It seems easier to find natural hones that are above the bevel setting range; I'm sure there are some great naturals out there to set bevels with, but I've not heard of any myself. It seems to me that there are more natural hones in the "finishing" range than any other range, but it could just be that those are the ones that are talked about more/are most sought after.

Based on my own hones, my C12k gives a finer final polish than my coticule, so the edge cut my beard more easily. But the C12k was also much slower; I used it after my coticule. At the time, my honing progression was King 1k, BBW with slurry, (dilute slurry gradually), BBW with water, coticule with water, C12k with water. I couldn't estimate the grits on my C12k (I'm told they are not actually 12k) or my coticule.

There is a hone comparison table somewhere in the wiki, and there are a few threads that attempt to sort natural hones based on where they would fit into a progression/what their relative grit rating is. Sorry, but I don't have the links offhand, and I'm feeling a bit lazy tonight...

Or, if you throw out a grit range you are looking for, I'm sure members could step up and offer you some suggestions that you could look into further.

IIRC, you are somewhere in the Upper Westchester area? (or maybe I'm totally off). There was a thread about a NYC/Tristate area meet up, and if you can make it, you should try to attend. I'm most likely going to drive down for it, because I love meets. It's quite likely there will be lots of hones and razors you can try, and I'm sure someone there will do some sort of a honing demo/faq thing. If I'm there and people want me to, I'd be happy to help.

I think one reason the Norton 4/8 was considered to be a good hone for a beginning honer is because it is consistent, predictable and very well known among many if the new guy runs into problems and has questions. I guess the same could be said for some of the natural hones nowadays but the Norton 4/8 combo is a good place to start learning with finishers coming later. Just a thought.

+1 to Dylan's post.

The coticule (aka belgian hone) is a great hone, and can serve more than one purpose, unlike the C12k hone.

I also agree that the C12k stone will put a finer, more polished edge on your razor than a coticule. I've looked at them under a microscope to check, as well as shaved after both.

The BBW (Belgian Blue Whetstone) is also another good stone. Depending on which method you use to sharpen a razor (Unicot, or Dilucot) you may or may not have a use for the BBW stone. Personally, I use the BBW for my kitchen knives, and occasionally use it to put a keener edge on a razor before moving to a finer polishing stone.

There's no real set guidelines as to which hone to use. There's still a lot of experimenting to be done, and people prefer different stones.

There may never be a "perfect" method for sharpening a stone, so you really do need to experiment and read to find out which combination of stones works for you, and you like.

Good luck!

+1 to Jimmy,Holli, and Avatar, and just to add to the confusion... even when you are talking about coticules and BBW's or other naturals, you must approach them on a stone by stone basis. While they will be similar, some coticules for example are much faster than others. Same goes for other naturals.

I'm a long time stone fondler who buys knives to have n excuse to buy more stones.

Recently I discovered I could come up with even more reasons to buy rocks by using a straight razor. Fortunately for my budget, I already bought them.

They've not gotten cheaper these last few years, nor have the good ones become more plentiful. I'll say I own the Chinese and a very nice combo coticule, and the chinese I'd sell if necessary or even convenient, and the coticule would be some extortionate unpayable number, as it's really not for sale.

I can't see doing without a combo-coticule, and the blue side is both different and very useful. I use it on almost all my kitchen knives, and it gets them sharp in a big hurry. Few of them go on the cream side, they have to be especially fine grained, 'singing' steel.

And then there's the japanese that's nearly finer than the chinese and lots pricier and harder to source, and THEN the chinese which in a pinch I'd replace with a strop and diamond spray. I happen to think in a few years the chinese stones will be somewhat more expensive, and owning an extra wouldn't be silly, but they'll still have a very small market.

Wow, this is really starting to come together.

Thanks everyone.

I'm in S. Carolina, not NY. I have a good friend in Westchester. Perhaps that was from a prior conversation about a visit there? Not sure...

So, here's what I'm thinking I will get. (in time)

- Coticule
- C12K, due to being an even smoother finisher

Now, looking for something more of a bevel setter. I know it can be done on the coti. Recently, I had the opportunity to experiment with a coti. One razor, it was the only stone needed. Produced a great edge. Another razor needed the aid (I needed it) of DMT. I THINK the DMT's were 800 and 1200??

So, would a DMT or a Norton 4/8 be a better choice? Which is less expensive?

Originally Posted by rickboone

Wow, this is really starting to come together.

Thanks everyone.

I'm in S. Carolina, not NY. I have a good friend in Westchester. Perhaps that was from a prior conversation about a visit there? Not sure...

So, here's what I'm thinking I will get. (in time)

- Coticule
- C12K, due to being an even smoother finisher

Now, looking for something more of a bevel setter. I know it can be done on the coti. Recently, I had the opportunity to experiment with a coti. One razor, it was the only stone needed. Produced a great edge. Another razor needed the aid (I needed it) of DMT. I THINK the DMT's were 800 and 1200??

So, would a DMT or a Norton 4/8 be a better choice? Which is less expensive?

DMT comes in a wide range of grits from 120 to 8000 six or seven steps.
Some folk like the 8000 DMT and go strait to the strop from it.


The Norton 4/8K combo stone is a common work horse in razor land.
Depending on your beard it might be the only hone you ever need.

You can price them yourself...
You are comparing a N4/8k with a DMT pair ...
My bet is that the Norton is less expensive
but the web can discover bargains.

A Chinese 12K is perhaps the least expensive natural finisher
to follow a 8k hone. A fine Coticule to equal it might be a lot
more expensive. see Barts notes on different Coticule stones
in his 'vault' pages.

While the C12K is slow, slow is not a bad thing....

As a first rough approximation think of a Coticule with a thick slurry as
the 4K side of a Norton and with water only as the 8K side but slower.

My side bet is on you buying a Norton 4/8 followed by
a C12K at which time you will be fully infected with HAD
and then a select a Coticule and then a couple barber
hones and then a stack of Shapton's or perhaps Naniwa
Super Stones and then....

If you want to set bevels, I would recommend you get a 1k hone. If you are looking for the cheapest, I had good luck with a King 1k, but I have heard from others they are not the most consistant hones. I also have a Norton 1k that I like. Naniwa or Shapton would also be good. You could then see if your coti with slurry cuts fast enough to use that right after the 1k and, if not, pick up some midrange hones; the Norton 4/8k is one great option there, as are Shaptons or Naniwas.

It's all a question of are you happy with the results you can get from your hones.