Thread: Re-visting the Chinese Hone

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

This almost kicks my HAD into motion again... If only I didn't have 5 barber hones on the way

Is buying a phig worth it at the price in North America, knowing it could be good or not??

My next question is more opinion. Would a nice black Arkansas (Dans) put a nicer edge on the blade? I've got one and can't justify getting a phig unless the edges are really that nice and top a black Arkansas, which by the way leaves some stellar edges.

I have translucent and black and both are about the same and in my opinion (totally subjective) the edges are much smoother than my guangxi edges (which are excellent in and of themselves). I wouldn't go buy a phig right away. Maybe down the road to compare at some point but a well prepared arkansas black surgical is tough to beat.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

You don't have to buy a diamond plate from the start. Use sandpaper, get a few pieces of 200 grit, 600 grit, 1000 grit, start from the coarser and proceed to the finer, until your stone is smooth. And don't forget to use a completely flat surface to place them on it. Clean the stones thoroughly, and they are set to go.
Yes, the 1k and 6k stones are "coarser", and you follow a progression, from the coarser to the finest, although you can skip a few steps, depending on the condition of your edge.
Stropping paste is not necessary at all if you find a good Chinese finishing stone, but stropping on plain, clean leather is necessary.

If you find out that you enjoy honing, and you start to see results, or have more than 10 razors, a diamond plate or two would be useful in the future, but for now, sandpaper is enough. And, if you can buy a small slurry stone with the Chinese natural finishing hone, it would be helpful.

Ok, thanks for the clear info. Slurry stones are available here, will probably have some questions about those a little down the road...
This may be a silly question but... what do you use for your completely flat surface? (and do you use water/running water; and how do you fix the sandpaper to the surface?)

Yes, you will need to lap it. They are very hard and you may have better luck with loose silicone powder,

GotGrit.com has all you need, you don’t need much, a tablespoon or two of each grit, starting at 80 to get flat and switch to Wet & Dry after, 500 grit. 80,120,220,320,500 is a good progression, (about $8.50), then wet & dry. Hard stones can strip the Diamonds from a Diamond plate,

Mark a grid on the stone with a Sharpie and sprinkle a tablespoon on a wet steel cookie sheet, (dollar store) and lay on flat cement, use your bodyweight. Once flat it will go quickly. Wet cookie sheet works well for wet & dry also,

The Chinese hones benefit from a fine finish, I go to 1k and burnish with hard flat carbon steel, for razor use, like an Ark, 2-300 laps.

Once lapped and burnished, you do not want to re-lap, like a synthetic. It may cut slower, but will give a finer finish.

My best Cnat came from the Ebay seller in Poland and is very different from the ones from Woodcraft, it's more like an Arkansas black, it's VERY hard and smooth and reflective like glass. I get great edges by using three series of 20 1/2 xstrokes, some circles and 50-70 regular xstroke all with very little pressure

Originally Posted by rodb

My best Cnat came from the Ebay seller in Poland and is very different from the ones from Woodcraft, it's more like an Arkansas black, it's VERY hard and smooth and reflective like glass. I get great edges by using three series of 20 1/2 xstrokes, some circles and 50-70 regular xstroke all with very little pressure

Was it from Open_Razor? I noticed he pulled everything from ebay recently because all this phig talk got me searching.. even though my girlfriend would lose it if I bought one..

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yes, you will need to lap it. They are very hard and you may have better luck with loose silicone powder,

GotGrit.com has all you need, you don’t need much, a tablespoon or two of each grit, starting at 80 to get flat and switch to Wet & Dry after, 500 grit. 80,120,220,320,500 is a good progression, (about $8.50), then wet & dry. Hard stones can strip the Diamonds from a Diamond plate,

Mark a grid on the stone with a Sharpie and sprinkle a tablespoon on a wet steel cookie sheet, (dollar store) and lay on flat cement, use your bodyweight. Once flat it will go quickly. Wet cookie sheet works well for wet & dry also,

The Chinese hones benefit from a fine finish, I go to 1k and burnish with hard flat carbon steel, for razor use, like an Ark, 2-300 laps.

Once lapped and burnished, you do not want to re-lap, like a synthetic. It may cut slower, but will give a finer finish.

Thanks for the info. I'll look into the grits; what is wet & dry? Is that different than the 500 grit?

Honestly, I don't know where I could find flat cement around here... my balcony is tiled with about one square foot tiles and fairly flat, would that work? Does that flat surface need to be perfectly flat (i.e. lapped hone flat) or just flat in the general sense? Any other recommendations?

"go to 1k and burnish with hard flat carbon steel, for razor use, like an Ark, 2-300 laps." What does this mean? A 1k grit against the stone and then rub it with steel? Is this a different method of lapping from the progression of grits mentioned?

"Once lapped and burnished, you do not want to re-lap, like a synthetic. It may cut slower, but will give a finer finish." Does this mean that I won't need to lap the guangxi again, period?

Thanks again everyone.

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Was it from Open_Razor? I noticed he pulled everything from ebay recently because all this phig talk got me searching.. even though my girlfriend would lose it if I bought one..

Yes, if I remember right. I got it about three years ago

Originally Posted by ffourteen

Thanks for the info. I'll look into the grits; what is wet & dry? Is that different than the 500 grit?

Wet/dry paper is a type of sand paper meant to be used both wet and dry. You can wet regular sandpaper but it breaks down quicker. All lapping should be done with the stone wet

Honestly, I don't know where I could find flat cement around here... my balcony is tiled with about one square foot tiles and fairly flat, would that work? Does that flat surface need to be perfectly flat (i.e. lapped hone flat) or just flat in the general sense? Any other recommendations?

You can use the kitchen table with a large ceramic tile on it. Perfectly flat is ideal but mostly flat will work.

"go to 1k and burnish with hard flat carbon steel, for razor use, like an Ark, 2-300 laps." What does this mean? A 1k grit against the stone and then rub it with steel? Is this a different method of lapping from the progression of grits mentioned?

This means to lap the stone flat up to 1k level by whichever way you can. Then when that is down with the stone still wet you want to rub it with steel. A large chefs knife or cleaver works well for this. Doing this will help put a better finish on the hone

"Once lapped and burnished, you do not want to re-lap, like a synthetic. It may cut slower, but will give a finer finish." Does this mean that I won't need to lap the guangxi again, period?

Yup once you do it once you should never have to do it again. Probably the next person that would have to do it again would be your great great grandkids.

Thanks again everyone.

I answered you questions with in the quote.

Originally Posted by ffourteen

Thanks for the info. I'll look into the grits; what is wet & dry? Is that different than the 500 grit?

Honestly, I don't know where I could find flat cement around here... my balcony is tiled with about one square foot tiles and fairly flat, would that work? Does that flat surface need to be perfectly flat (i.e. lapped hone flat) or just flat in the general sense? Any other recommendations?

"go to 1k and burnish with hard flat carbon steel, for razor use, like an Ark, 2-300 laps." What does this mean? A 1k grit against the stone and then rub it with steel? Is this a different method of lapping from the progression of grits mentioned?

"Once lapped and burnished, you do not want to re-lap, like a synthetic. It may cut slower, but will give a finer finish." Does this mean that I won't need to lap the guangxi again, period?

Thanks again everyone.

Grit is the number of particles per square inch. On natural stones, the number does not make sense in many ways, that's why most of us stopped calling it the "C12k"
You'd better start with sandpaper sheet progression, and don't tell me you don't have these, because I buy mine from China. Loose grit is more advanced stuff.
If you are looking for a flat surface, try your table, your kitchen bench... anything big enough that looks flat, and when you place a ruler on it, you can't see between them. or if you drop some water to the one side of the ruler it won't pass to the other, parallel to the ruler anyway. Place the sandpaper on it and start rubbing the stone on the sandpaper until the stone has a uniform finish. Then move to the next grade.
You don't have to use the sandpaper always wet. Dry works as well, just try not to inhale too much of the dust. When you finish, with each grade, and especially when you've finished from your finest grade of sandpaper, wash the stone thoroughly, rub it with your hand, then rinse it again, you don't want any loose particles from the sandpaper to get stuck in the stone.
As for burnishing the surface, that's Arkansas fine stones stuff. It has nothing to do with the Chinese stone, and honestly, after the 400 grit sandpaper, you can start using it, and you'll have the same results, just less drag, compared to a mirror finished surface.
And, you might need to relap your stone. Every now and then, place a ruler on the stone's surface and see if they both are touching everywhere. If a curvature starts to appear on the stone, you'll need to lap it again with the sandpaper.
Also, get a big stone, it will probably be easier for you to learn the "art" of honing. something like 20x7.5cm stone, or even bigger.

So just to give an update, I got the phig (the larger one, as recommended--it is gray with a light grain, like the second hone in the picture a few pages back). Lapped it on 220, then 600, then 1000 grit sandpaper with a little bit of water; didn't spend too long, I'd say 20 to 30 minutes total. When I looked at it at a steep angle with a light it had a mirror-like surface, so I decided to try refreshing the razor. I did 20 passes with my razor on the stone and was able to feel a difference in sharpness with my thumb (before, when I passed a moist thumb across the blade it felt slick, after 20 passes I felt a sort of vibrating and it made a sound something like the sound it makes when shaving *note: the razor is full hollow ground). So I decided to strop it as normal on clean leather and shave with it. MUCH less pulling than the previous shave, though still a very little bit. After one pass my skin felt totally smooth when I rubbed it with the grain, but still a little prickly when I rubbed against the grain (and I'm still not getting as close of a shave under my chin and throat as I am across my face).
Anyway, thanks for the help everyone. It seems I'm on the right track and with some practice and playing around should be able to keep the razor in good shape.
One more small question, I think I had read that it takes a few shaves after a hone (and refresh?) to start getting the best results. Should I give the razor a couple more shaves and see if it improves, or should I try a few more passes on the phig? I am still working on my shaving technique... but I've shaved enough that I'm pretty sure the result today was about the razor, and not me (mostly).