Thread: Are thie Eschers so worthwhile ?

Originally Posted by jeness

I don't want to disappoint you, but if you got that much better edges with the escher than with the CH12k or the coti, that means that you can't use them yet. Somehow the escher suits your honing style better, or it was easier for you to learn it. A Norton 8k edge compared to an escher, thats worlds of difference. An escher compared to a coti or CH12k edge? They are all finishers, and there isn't that much of a difference between them. Sure, some like other finishers more, but its not like comparing a Zeepk and a DD. More like a W&B wedge, and a C-Mon extra hollow, they are both good, but in a different way.

trust me This posting in no way dissapointed me-not even a little

Did anyone get any of the info about the dubious plan Glenn is working?

Originally Posted by mainaman

I am not sure you can make any meaningful conclusions out of the test .

I only linked that thread because out of 7 people 6 couldn't tell which razor was honed on which stone. So I would guess if we did a similar test with and escher, CH12k, and a coti, the majority of people couldn't tell either which one is which. IF there were THAT much superiority in the final edge, everyone could tell the difference, or not? I don't say they are not good, my point is just that the final edge is not that much superior. Nearly everyone can tell the difference between a norton 8k finish, and an escher finish. But I don't think the majority could separate a good coti edge from a good escher edge, or a good nakayama edge from a good CF edge, or anything. I believe that there are a few of these people out there who could, but I think they are rare. This is simply MY opinion, and an idea that can be thought of, I am nowhere that experienced in honing or shaving than the other guys here.

Originally Posted by jeness

I only linked that thread because out of 7 people 6 couldn't tell which razor was honed on which stone. So I would guess if we did a similar test with and escher, CH12k, and a coti, the majority of people couldn't tell either which one is which. IF there were THAT much superiority in the final edge, everyone could tell the difference, or not? I don't say they are not good, my point is just that the final edge is not that much superior. Nearly everyone can tell the difference between a norton 8k finish, and an escher finish. But I don't think the majority could separate a good coti edge from a good escher edge, or a good nakayama edge from a good CF edge, or anything. I believe that there are a few of these people out there who could, but I think they are rare. This is simply MY opinion, and an idea that can be thought of, I am nowhere that experienced in honing or shaving than the other guys here.

Your last sentance is the only one that made any sence at all-Little experience=little knowlage

Originally Posted by Grizzley1

Little experience=little knowlage

if you believe that the only true knowlegde IS direct experience, yes. <sarcasm> so go ahead and burn all your books, because all of it is wrong, and stop reading these posts. the experiences that others relate mean nothing. the only thing that matters is your subjective reality.</sarcasm>

seriously though.. i dont know how many people can and how many people cant tell the difference between different finishing stones. in the end i think lots of people can find differences, and for whatever reasons (including and aside from the resulting finished edge) arrive at their personal favorite. but when it comes to a blind test of finished edges i also think there are also lots that wont identify subtle differences which are present.

im not trying to say that there are no differences. some people who really love their hones would be offended to hear that. (dont you dare say that about my XYZ). part of the problem with that test may be, as sham said, that you are not just trying to distinguish the effects of different hones but the effects of different hones as used by someone else, and used and stropped by others still.

anywas, what i was getting at is that i think second hand knowledge/experience from many people can teach you things that you may not learn with only your own limited and subjective experience. thats why we are here right?
dont get me wrong, i can see why someone would reject second hand knowledge for first hand experience. but when we all do that and still dont manage to arrive at a consensus some one somewhere (or maybe ev eryone everywhere) is missing something that they might learn from someone else. you cant really be rejecting all second hand knowledge, can you?

Gentlemen, we are talking about the merits of finishing stones. Some of us prefer one more than another. No reason to get hot under the collar. I'm not singling anyone out but lets keep it civil and the thread can continue. Otherwise it will have to be closed. Thanks for your understanding.

Originally Posted by Grizzley1

Your last sentance is the only one that made any sence at all-Little experience=little knowlage

WOW, never knew that. But if its true, than this forum doesn't have any purpose, and my university studies either

I only wrote down my opinion after trying about 5-10 pro finished edges and honing for about 1 year, I thought I can make a civilised discussion out of it. I never wanted to offend anyone.

Obviously you guys have not learned "Glen's axiom of honing"

Let me post it for you again...

"When Honing a Straight razor it is generally accepted that the edge will max out at between .37 - .47 Microns, depending on the steel and grind... The edge starts to cut hair at around .50 Microns during the Bevel set... About 90% of the work in honing is setting the Bevel, another 9% occurs between setting the bevel and the "Shave Ready" point and the last 1% is what everyone argues about, and spends the most money on"

Now I would agree that few would be able to tell the difference between most finishers, after Paste and Stropping in, but I would also like to assume that you test your edges straight off the hones at least at some point in time to see just how good they are...
Straight off the hones tells you quite a bit about not only the stone but about your ability to hone too...

Originally Posted by ezpz

if you believe that the only true knowlegde IS direct experience, yes. <sarcasm> so go ahead and burn all your books, because all of it is wrong, and stop reading these posts. the experiences that others relate mean nothing. the only thing that matters is your subjective reality.</sarcasm>

seriously though.. i dont know how many people can and how many people cant tell the difference between different finishing stones. in the end i think lots of people can find differences, and for whatever reasons (including and aside from the resulting finished edge) arrive at their personal favorite. but when it comes to a blind test of finished edges i also think there are also lots that wont identify subtle differences which are present.

im not trying to say that there are no differences. some people who really love their hones would be offended to hear that. (dont you dare say that about my XYZ). part of the problem with that test may be, as sham said, that you are not just trying to distinguish the effects of different hones but the effects of different hones as used by someone else, and used and stropped by others still.

anywas, what i was getting at is that i think second hand knowledge/experience from many people can teach you things that you may not learn with only your own limited and subjective experience. thats why we are here right?
dont get me wrong, i can see why someone would reject second hand knowledge for first hand experience. but when we all do that and still dont manage to arrive at a consensus some one somewhere (or maybe ev eryone everywhere) is missing something that they might learn from someone else. you cant really be rejecting all second hand knowledge, can you?

First let me say that that post wasnt aimed at you,second let me see you read a book on riding a motercycle, or a horse for that matter, and than ride it, so yes experance is the only way to learn some things.As Glen already put it most,if not alot of us see what kind of edge we get of of any partular(sic) hone,so if you have no experance with one you would definatly not be able to tell which stone gave you a certain edge,but At least some of us have and I certanly can tell the difference between a coti,and my new thurry,and the Norton for that matter,but I never stop my honeing on those. One last thing, I learned a great deal from reading posts by Sham,Glen and others,but only by putting them into practice can you tell the difference

When did I say that I didn't use these hones? I have used them, and there are a lot of differences between them in usage. But after stropping, and more so if you used it 1-2 times, it becomes very hard to tell which one is which. And I couldn't say that one is markedly superior to the other, only a bit better, or simply just different. All stones can deliver an effortless, smooth, 2 pass BBS without irritation, or pulling. As Jimmy said, finishers are really personal preference.