Thread: Difference between US and Mexican Norton 4K

If anyone wants to know what it sounds like to hit a piece of grit in the hone, just watch Lynn's honing video. I'm absolutely positively certainly not saying he had a piece of grit in his hone, but the sound is the same as in his video. If you go to the 3:00 point in the video and listen closely, every stroke on the 4K side that is away from him has a little "snick" sound midway through the stroke.

It looks to me like the newer hone has more "pores" in it, for lack of a better term. Almost like little air pockets or something. That would make it feel more coarse, even though the size of the cutting grits might be the same in both.

Has anyone concluded that the grits themselves are also more coarse, or is it speculation based on the way the hone feels in use?

I got a bad U.S. made Norton my first time out. It had grits embedded in it just like you're describing. The three or four I've played with since have all been fine.

Josh

Josh,
Sorry, you are absolutely correct. I agree that the pores, in and of themselves, would not make the stone more coarse. As long as the material within the hone is equally fine, the pores should not dramatically affect the performance of the hone. I only looked under the scope after using the hone when I first got it because I immediately noticed that it did not feel like my other 4K.

I guess my concern is that Norton gave assurances when the production went to Mexico that the hones would not change. In my opinion, based upon my vast (note dripping sarcasm) experience with two 4K hones, the pores and the honing feedback and the embedded bits all indicate that the newer hones are different in their basic material composition as well. I would not draw such a conclusion except for the previous posts describing similar problems with new hones.

Did I mention I own stock in Shapton?

Oops, I misread Josh's post. He said the pores would make the hone feel more coarse. I did not catch that on first reading and I'm not sure that I agree. I'm not sure I don't agree.
If the material that exists where the pores aren't are identical in both hones, would the presence of the pores change the feel of the stroke significantly? I tried to think this through and I kind of see it both ways.

Originally Posted by Utopian

These aren't great photos but they'll give you the idea.
The first is the US Norton 4K and the second is the Mexican Norton 4K.

Ah that might be a difference. The combination stones have a 4K side made in italy. The manufacturing location is specified on that blue box.
Have they been lapped with the same lapping plate?

Originally Posted by Bruno

Have they been lapped with the same lapping plate?

Yes, many times.

I have 2 4K nortons. 1K/4K and 4K/8K.
Both behave the same way, though I have to admit the 4K/8k hone needed a fair bit of lapping to get rid of some embedded grit. That was primarily on the 8K side though.

I've also found that having a rough honing surface changes the behavior of the hone. This can easily be tested if you have 2 diferent grit lapping plates, like the norton flattening stone and the DMTD8C.

While the NFS was better than the sandpaper solution (for me, at least) the DMT leaves a much smoother honing surface.
After some experimenting, I have concluded that a rough honing surface cuts faster than a smooth honing surface. I think this is because the edge contact is on a smaller surface, so the pressure gets divided across a lot less metal, which is then more easily torn away by the grit.

Of course I didn't do a double blind test with dozens of razors, so ymmv.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Yes, many times.

Ok then the difference would indeed be the stone itself and nothing else.
I'll PM Howard and ask if he has the time to chime in.

To add more complexity to this, I recently got two new Nortons, one a 4K and a 1K/220 combo and both are marked made in Italy.

Not arguing with your pics but Howard mentioned that Norton was experiencing better quality since they moved that operation to Mexico. Perhaps yours was produced either right before or right after siesta. If so, they should timestap the darned things