Thread: Jnat?

I would like to get a jnat but I have no clue about them. I just want one for finishing. What should I be looking for? I currently use coticules, a Naniwa 12k SS and a Thuringian and get really nice edges. Just looking for something new. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

If I were you, I would get in touch with Maxim at JNS.com.
He is a very knowledgeable fella, a member here, and can get you some very nice Japanese hones for a decent price

There are a few others as well out there, but I have mainly done my purchases from Maxim, so he would be my recommendation.

Originally Posted by Danricgro

I would like to get a jnat but I have no clue about them. I just want one for finishing. What should I be looking for? I currently use coticules, a Naniwa 12k SS and a Thuringian and get really nice edges. Just looking for something new. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Danrico, basically there are mines(nakayama,shoubudani,ozuku,okudo...)
and from different depths(stratas) stones from these mines are ''taken''(?). The
finishing hones are usually,as far as I know, from the Tomae, Aisa, Namito, Suita
and Shiro suita ,the deepest respectivelly.

The deeper strata produce better stones for finishing
because the layer is more pressed, compressed because all of the weight that
is above it. The particles are fines because of this.

The japanese also look at how the stone looks. If the stone has black/blue big
spots, they call it karasu, which means crow. This quality adds to the value
of the stone, but doesn't make it perform much better. Just cost more because
it is rare.

Other things in stones that are found are:
-nashiji, yellow little dots as far as I know.

-renge, difficult to explain, but red/pinkish spots on the stone

-asagi, blue stone.

-kiita, yellow stone, more expensive usually

-su(found in suita stones)

So you can have a stone from the nakayama mountain, that comes
from the Namito layer and has a yellow colour, it is then called
Nakayama namito kiita. Sometimes the layer isn't even mentioned
than it could be called Nakayama kiita. Or the mine is unknown
and then this stone would be called namito kiita.

If you are going to buy a jn because it might give the ultimate finish,
don't. Anything above your 12K naniwa is going to give very little
improvement. There is nothing special about a JN stone in terms
of performance compared to other good natural or synthetic stones.
But natural stones can be much more interesting than synthetic stones.

You can get a JN finishing hone for 50USD, but you can also get
stones that are a 1000USD and even more. The 1000 dollar stone
does not perform 20 times better than a 50 USD stone. It usually
looks better(no lines, cracks, better shape).

Hope this helps you a bit.

Sharpman

Originally Posted by SharpMan

If you are going to buy a jn because it might give the ultimate finish,
don't. Anything above your 12K naniwa is going to give very little
improvement. There is nothing special about a JN stone in terms
of performance compared to other good natural or synthetic stones.

Reading this statement I wonder if you have tried a quality Jnat so far?
A good Jnat goes way higher than 12k SS in fineness and smoothness.

You can get a JN finishing hone for 50USD, but you can also get
stones that are a 1000USD and even more. The 1000 dollar stone
does not perform 20 times better than a 50 USD stone. It usually
looks better(no lines, cracks, better shape).


Sharpman

There is reason why there are 50 bucks stones and 500 bucks stones, you just have to try a bunch to get the difference.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Reading this statement I wonder if you have tried a quality Jnat so far?
A good Jnat goes way higher than 12k SS in fineness and smoothness.

There is reason why there are 50 bucks stones and 500 bucks stones, you just have to try a bunch to get the difference.

Anything above 8000grit gives small improvements
which of course can mean little to some, but much to others. A
40.000 grit stone will give a very small improvement compared to a
30.000 grit stone whereas a 8.000 stone will give a big improvement
compared to a 1.000 grit stone. The higher you go, the smaller the
improvement becomes.

While I do not have a very expensive jn(mine is only 250USD), I have
tried one very expensive Maruka stone. Beautiful stone, very pleasant feeling
while sharpening.Very sharp edge result, but not much better the 10k
chosera I used a while ago. Definitely more pleasant to use and watch
at.
I won't comment on smoothness because I sharpen plane blades,
but my razor buddy who owns the stone,concurred with my thoughts,
but did say the nakayama was more smooth and a very little bit sharper.

Here ,Check it out yourself:
Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Edges

About your last point, I explained why there was actually a difference. The
50 buck stones usually look far less good than 500 buck stone and the latter
performs better, but not 10 times better(which its price would suggest),
unless the 50buck stone is really bad.

Sharpman

But Sharpman the whole reason to get better finishers for Razor honing IS the smooth...

Sharp is easy we are basically done with "Sharp" at around the 4k equivalent stage, after that all we are seeking is the smooth...

Lets try real numbers so maybe you can understand what straight razors are about,,,

The edge tops out at somewhere between .47 and .37 Microns on a Straight Razor, dependent on grind and steel...
The razor starts cutting hair at about .50 Microns, which we most all achieve at 1k and the bevel set... as you can see there is very little "Sharp" left in that equation, only how smooth it feels on the face... Which is why we chase the better finishers, for us it isn't about how sharp we can get it, that is easy for us, it is about how smooth it feels...
Unfortunately this is something that you won't ever understand until you start shaving hair instead of shaving wood

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Anything above 8000grit gives small improvements
which of course can mean little to some, but much to others. A
40.000 grit stone will give a very small improvement compared to a
30.000 grit stone whereas a 8.000 stone will give a big improvement
compared to a 1.000 grit stone. The higher you go, the smaller the
improvement becomes.

but you can also definitely feel the improvement from 8k to 30k stone.

While I do not have a very expensive jn(mine is only 250USD), I have
tried one very expensive Maruka stone. Beautiful stone, very pleasant feeling
while sharpening.Very sharp edge result, but not much better the 10k
chosera I used a while ago. Definitely more pleasant to use and watch
at.

Maruka is just a stamp that is put on a stone, I do not take is a sign of any special quality. There are good ones out there but they are rare, most are too soft for razor use.

About your last point, I explained why there was actually a difference. The
50 buck stones usually look far less good than 500 buck stone and the latter
performs better, but not 10 times better(which its price would suggest),
unless the 50buck stone is really bad.

You will not find a 50 bucks stone that can perform same as a 300 bucks stone. You can find many 200 usd stones that perform same as 400-500 usd stones the difference being the size and appearance. The difference in price does not relate to difference in performance , but the really cheap stones are cheap for a reason.

@ OP
as posted above contact Mksim @ JNS and he will find you a very nice stone for a good price.

For J Nat stones the best source I can think of is either Maxim at Japanesenaturalstones.com or the other source is Japantool.com. Old_school was a guy on here back in the day that was the most reliable but he's MIA for the past few years. Maxim seems to get a lot of Oozuku Asagi stones which, as far as I've experienced, have been very hard and fine for a Jnat stone.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

But Sharpman the whole reason to get better finishers for Razor honing IS the smooth...

Sharp is easy we are basically done with "Sharp" at around the 4k equivalent stage, after that all we are seeking is the smooth...

Lets try real numbers so maybe you can understand what straight razors are about,,,

The edge tops out at somewhere between .47 and .37 Microns on a Straight Razor, dependent on grind and steel...
The razor starts cutting hair at about .50 Microns, which we most all achieve at 1k and the bevel set... as you can see there is very little "Sharp" left in that equation, only how smooth it feels on the face... Which is why we chase the better finishers, for us it isn't about how sharp we can get it, that is easy for us, it is about how smooth it feels...
Unfortunately this is something that you won't ever understand until you start shaving hair instead of shaving wood

I thought 0.50 micron was 30K grit and not 1k?

Gssixgun, I do understand what you are saying and my point was never
that a Jnat would not give a fantastic edge for a razor. It was more
about the idea that might exist with a lot of people that know nothing
about JNAT's and they might think that the Jnat will improve the result
tremendously after a very fine stone(like the naniwa 12K), like expecting
almost a miracle.

I can't argue with your last point, but my razor buddy said that his
expensive,very hard maruka was slightly better than the chosera 10K
and almost the same as cro-ox.

Sharpman

Originally Posted by SharpMan

I thought 0.50 micron was 30K grit and not 1k?

The edge. is .50 microns not the stone


I can't argue with your last point, but my razor buddy said that his
expensive,very hard maruka was slightly better than the chosera 10K
and almost the same as cro-ox.

Sharpman

And your razor buddies here, are trying to explain the difference to you


Also just for real clarification there isn't one of us that hones a ton of razors that doesn't keep telling people that really, nobody ever NEEDS more than an 8k equivalent stone to get a comfortable shave... Everything else is just fun