Naniwa 12K after a Coticule, to improve edges that are good but not great?

Back some years ago there was a debate within the honing forums on whether a razor could be too sharp. The general consensus became that it couldn't be too sharp but it could be too harsh. Some of the honemeisters, at that time, suggested that if you found your edge too harsh upon completing your finishing ..... talking higher girts here over 8k, you could go back to the previous high grit and soften the edge. So, just thinking out loud here, since a fine, finishing coticule is generally known to leave a very comfortable and smooth feeling edge, perhaps that is why some guys would 'go back' in the progression.

Edit; Gary was posting while I was typing .... says the same thing I think ? Proving that great minds think alike. :p

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

i don't think many people would drop back from a 12k to a 6k , they may go from a 30k synthetic, in this case a shapton 30k. and then finsh with a natural stone . a natural stone tends to tame a very sharp edge , probably just like cronium oxide would. even a ch12k would probably work, i'm not to sure. may of us have used nortons for majority of the work, ten finished with a natural finisher to create a more forgiving softer edge , thats how it feels to me any way. i've shaved of 12k naniwa a couple of times and that is very close if not as good as a natural finisher. i'd never go back to a 6k after a 12k. naturals don't have grit rating, they just make a sharp nice edge a little more skin feindly in my opinion. same as cro .ox

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thank you for the explanation.... i see your point.... i was kinda exaggerating when i said return to the 6k.....

but if you have honed it out to 30k why bother going back to the natural stone "to create a more forgiving softer edge"?.....

why bother with the 30k if you are going to go backwards?? why not just go straight from the 4k8k to the coti and shave???


i am not trying to cause controversy... i am just trying to understand the reasoning....

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Originally Posted by paco664

why bother with the 30k if you are going to go backwards?? why not just go straight from the 4k8k to the coti and shave???

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Realizing that you are directing your question to Gary, I am going to interject my own experience. I had a Shapton Pro 30K and rarely used it. Found my escher or fine finishing coticule ..... as opposed to some not so fine .... to be all I needed and wanted in a shaving edge. That is why I eventually sold the 30k. Not that it isn't a great finisher, but for me it was just too much of a good thing. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Realizing that you are directing your question to Gary, I am going to interject my own experience. I had a Shapton Pro 30K and rarely used it. Found my escher or fine finishing coticule ..... as opposed to some not so fine .... to be all I needed and wanted in a shaving edge. That is why I eventually sold the 30k. Not that it isn't a great finisher, but for me it was just too much of a good thing. YMMV.

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exactly my point... i was wondering why someone had a Shapton Pro 30K and rarely used it why would honers *(sic) go alllllll the way out there *(and 30k is out there)... then go backwards... i am just curious as to why they would do that .....

thanks for your answer...

well i never used a 30k shapton. from what i have read not many folks felt the need for it. i do see your point. if i had a 30k i would expect it to be te bollocks in finishers.
gary

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

well i never used a 30k shapton. from what i have read not many folks felt the need for it. i do see your point. if i had a 30k i would expect it to be te bollocks in finishers.
gary

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I have one, and they can be quite nice. The reason I don't use it more has much less to do with the end results than the experience. It has no "soul" like natural stones...

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Originally Posted by richmondesi

I have one, and they can be quite nice. The reason I don't use it more has much less to do with the end results than the experience. It has no "soul" like natural stones...

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thats the words i was looking for.

gary

We straight razor shavers approach honing from different perspectives. Some of us send our razors out and maybe maintain them with strop and barber hone. Others have a minimum amount of hones to sharpen/maintain their rotation. Still others get into the hones as a sport and want to experience the different characteristics with many different hones and razors. This is where the HAD can come in along with the RAD. Than there are the honemeisters and the pro honers who sharpen and finish professionally. For them the main thing is , I think, consistency, though there may be overlap between pro honers and sport honers.

The pro honer needs something that will be predictable and consistent because his volume will , chances are, be well over that of the sport honer. So pro honers, while they may use some naturals, tend to do the meat and potatoes bevel setting and sharpening with synthetics. They may or may not go to the naturals for the finish. Then there is paste to throw into the mix.

Since I am, and have always been , a sport honer, I have the luxury of trying whatever I want without the deadline to meet and no expectations beyond my own. So I began by accumulating a variety of synthetics and naturals. When I sharpened and finished with the Shapton pro set I found that I just didn't need to 'gild the Lilly' and go beyond the 15k to the 30k. I did sometimes but found it was almost redundant for me. That is why I ended up using it rarely. I bought it out of a combination of enthusiasm and curiosity and sold it because an Escher is plenty enough for my needs.

I do agree with richmondesi that the naturals have "soul". Here again, not everyone will have that perspective. For some a tool is a tool and the most efficient tool is the one to keep and to use. I can't argue with that either. In the end I wound up with the chosera 1k as my bevel setter, the norton 4/8 for sharpening and the escher or sometimes the coticule for finishing. Not that these are the "best" choices but having tried the alternatives they are what I found worked best for me. I don't think there is a default "right" answer for what is best for everyone. Depends on the individual, their needs and the preferences that come with experience.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

We straight razor shavers approach honing from different perspectives. Some of us send our razors out and maybe maintain them with strop and barber hone. Others have a minimum amount of hones to sharpen/maintain their rotation. Still others get into the hones as a sport and want to experience the different characteristics with many different hones and razors. This is where the HAD can come in along with the RAD. Than there are the honemeisters and the pro honers who sharpen and finish professionally. For them the main thing is , I think, consistency, though there may be overlap between pro honers and sport honers.

The pro honer needs something that will be predictable and consistent because his volume will , chances are, be well over that of the sport honer. So pro honers, while they may use some naturals, tend to do the meat and potatoes bevel setting and sharpening with synthetics. They may or may not go to the naturals for the finish. Then there is paste to throw into the mix.

Since I am, and have always been , a sport honer, I have the luxury of trying whatever I want without the deadline to meet and no expectations beyond my own. So I began by accumulating a variety of synthetics and naturals. When I sharpened and finished with the Shapton pro set I found that I just didn't need to 'gild the Lilly' and go beyond the 15k to the 30k. I did sometimes but found it was almost redundant for me. That is why I ended up using it rarely. I bought it out of a combination of enthusiasm and curiosity and sold it because an Escher is plenty enough for my needs.

I do agree with richmondesi that the naturals have "soul". Here again, not everyone will have that perspective. For some a tool is a tool and the most efficient tool is the one to keep and to use. I can't argue with that either. In the end I wound up with the chosera 1k as my bevel setter, the norton 4/8 for sharpening and the escher or sometimes the coticule for finishing. Not that these are the "best" choices but having tried the alternatives they are what I found worked best for me. I don't think there is a default "right" answer for what is best for everyone. Depends on the individual, their needs and the preferences that come with experience.

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exallant post jimmy .

gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Than there are the honemeisters and the pro honers who sharpen and finish professionally. For them the main thing is , I think, consistency, though there may be overlap between pro honers and sport honers.

The pro honer needs something that will be predictable and consistent because his volume will , chances are, be well over that of the sport honer. So pro honers, while they may use some naturals, tend to do the meat and potatoes bevel setting and sharpening with synthetics. They may or may not go to the naturals for the finish. Then there is paste to throw into the mix.

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I realize many of you think it is true but it isn't about speed, it is about perfection...

Consistency is the truth, but I think you missed a small bit in there

Building consistency comes from the knowledge of which stone works BEST, not fastest, with each razor... I only wish it were that easy to go to the fastest most consistent system..

Keep in mind when you are talking pro honing you now might just learn the truth about how well you actually hone, not what you think to be the truth, but what somebody else tells you is the truth...
The acid test for anybody who hones is to charge a complete stranger across an ocean who paid more for the shipping then for the honing on his Full custom razor and tell him you did it the fastest way possible and it is a perfectly adequate job... just don't try that too often :)

You better know that when you pick the hones/stones to do the job that you picked the ones that are going to give the smoothest most comfortable shave possible on his razor...

And BTW that choice of stones could be different for each person and their technique, hence right back to where I joined this conversation "There is no best hone"

And to tie it totally back to the OP a Naniwa 12k may very well improve the keenness of your Coticule edge and that might be a viable system for you to use.. I might find that the best edge on that razor comes from a Norton 8k then my Coticule, or perhaps just my Coticule using the "One Hone System" after a bevel set, or heaven forbid that soulless Naniwa 12k might just be the best edge for that razor without the Coticule, only trying it all will tell you the truth...