Naniwa 12K after a Coticule, to improve edges that are good but not great?

Hi I have a few razors, 4 of which come off my coticule with an awesome edge, Kropp, Sprock, Gold Dollar (yes really) and Seehund. The others will shave well but are not quite in the same league as far as sharpness goes Kukri, Hermes, Bassler (inox), Joseph Elliot Wedge, Allen & sons.

I am confident that the bevels and are good and, with the possible exception of the wedge, I'm confident that my technique on the OK razors has been the same as the on the great ones.

I was wondering if a 12K Naniwa superstone is likely to improve the edge after a coti or whether I should just accept that some razors are better than others.

When you get up into the finishing range, a lot of it comes down to personal preference. Another factor may be if a given razor does better off a given hone. If the razors are pretty close in terms of shave quality, trying a different finisher may make the difference. Or maybe not...

If you are in the position where you would have to buy the Naniwa 12k, you may want to first explore a less expensive alternative, like a pasted strop for example.

I have yet to find a razor that has not benefitted from a few laps on the Naniwa 12k. Yes, I like coticule edges, infact some of my edges remain untouched coticule edges, but the Naniwa does seem to give it that little bit "extra". Plus, it depends on how I feel like honing: 50-100 coti laps vs 10-15 on the Nani.

From money and consistency standpoints you can't go wrong by having a Naniwa 12k in your honing arsenal.

I'm a big fan of coticule edges, as most of you guys no. i still like using paste and the odd differant hone. i will work and work on my coticule to get there. Some times latley i have thought the same as ryan . time and laps . i have a 10k naniwa . Now lets say i hone a razor on coticule and i'm not quite where i want to be colse but not close enough, to my standard. i do another 50 laps on coticule and there is not enought improvemant, then anothe 100 laps for example. still the same . 10 to 20 laps on 10k or 12k naniwa will get me there. then 30 on coticule will give me coti edge . So my answer to your post is yes the 10 or 12k naniwa will do the job very well as in between or last hone in my experiance and save time. a good progression would be coti dilucot , then finish on 10 or 12k naniwa folowed by paste or coti or just as it is at the final hone . Te reason i posted to this is i have been doing just that and it does work .

gary

Thats an interesting idea Gary, revisit the coti after the Naniwa.

My coticule is kind of my all purpose always works finisher. I've never met a coticule finished edge I didn't like to shave with but you can do better. I'll use my Escher for a definite upgrade and the Shapton 30K Glass also. Then of course thereos always the pasted strops too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeltz

Thats an interesting idea Gary, revisit the coti after the Naniwa.

---

there is a lot of chaps that go to coti after 8k so why not after 10k. its similar thing to 1k 4k 8k 10 k and natural coti thury or what have you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gary haywood

there is a lot of chaps that go to coti after 8k so why not after 10k. its similar thing to 1k 4k 8k 10 k and natural coti thury or what have you.

---

+1. Some hones will get a blade sharper, but very few (if any) other hones will leave a blade as smooth as a coticule.

Gary
if you could explain
1. why you are going to naniwa after the coticule?
what is the reason?
Sharpness? smoothness? or anything else?
2. Why again after naniwa you are returning to Coticule?
This is just doesn't make a sense to me?

if coticule is not fine enough i could understand to go to Naniwa after use of coticule to get sharper edge?
Then question comes up why do you return to coticule again? In case it is not fine enough stone?
Your Edge will get dulled again?
Lets say it is fine stone which will put the smooth edge to the blade.
In this case why you are going to 12 k or 10k Naniwa? NO reason for it?
Just confusing or i miss your point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gary haywood

I'm a big fan of coticule edges, as most of you guys no. i still like using paste and the odd differant hone. i will work and work on my coticule to get there. Some times latley i have thought the same as ryan . time and laps . i have a 10k naniwa . Now lets say i hone a razor on coticule and i'm not quite where i want to be colse but not close enough, to my standard. i do another 50 laps on coticule and there is not enough improvemant, then anothe 100 laps for example. still the same . 10 to 20 laps on 10k or 12k naniwa will get me there. then 30 on coticule will give me coti edge . So my answer to your post is yes the 10 or 12k naniwa will do the job very well as in between or last hone in my experiance and save time. a good progression would be coti dilucot , then finish on 10 or 12k naniwa folowed by paste or coti or just as it is at the final hone . Te reason i posted to this is i have been doing just that and it does work .

gary

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Gary
if you could explain
1. why you are going to naniwa after the coticule?
what is the reason?
Sharpness? smoothness? or anything else?
2. Why again after naniwa you are returning to Coticule?
This is just doesn't make a sense to me?

if coticule is not fine enough i could understand to go to Naniwa after use of coticule to get sharper edge?
Then question comes up why do you return to coticule again? In case it is not fine enough stone?
Your Edge will get dulled again?
Lets say it is fine stone which will put the smooth edge to the blade.
In this case why you are going to 12 k or 10k Naniwa? NO reason for it?
Just confusing or i miss your point.

---

Because he likes the results he gets with it? Just a guess. It's an interesting idea.

Gary, do you find that the edge retains the keenness of the naniwa but gains the smoothness of the coticule? This is an interesting idea, I wish I had a naniwa to try it out on!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

My coticule is kind of my all purpose always works finisher. I've never met a coticule finished edge I didn't like to shave with but you can do better. I'll use my Escher for a definite upgrade and the Shapton 30K Glass also. Then of course thereos always the pasted strops too.

---

Agree 100% I have a couple of "Go To" Coticules, but I'm a tough critic. I feel the edge can always be better.
The Escher is a fantastic finisher, hands down, my personal favorite, and normally the first line of defense for a degrading razor.

But, I am spoiled. SRD's Hard Wool Felt with .50 Diamond Spray is a must. Any edge can be improved with 10 lapps on it. It just takes your blade to the next level.

I just honed up a DD GE the other day, It's ugly, but it's a DD GE....It's got some pitting, some staining, but it doesn't matter, If you've used one, you understand. I honed it up on the Coticules, it was good, but it wasn't great.
I used the Wool Felt with .50. and it's "Shavana"

Might be something in the alloy of the second-level razors that the coti won't cut.

If they refuse to yield to anything, make a balsa hone with 0.25 micron diamond or green chromium oxide (0.5).

Nice fine grained carbon steel should yield to natural stones nicely, but as far as I know, there are no carbides that diamonds and green stuff won't cut.

All of my naturals are particular about the steels that are used, at least when it comes to woodworking tools. Never paid that much attention with razors.

Great replies guys, I'm learning loads. What is interesting is that tonight I took one of the 2nd grade razors, dulled it on a bottle then reset the bevel with my King 1000 then moved straight onto the 6000, then finished ve it it on my dragons tongue. I then tried to improve the edge with a C12K (PHIG) but it dulled slightly. Then I went back to the DT and got it back to where it had been. I have just test shaved and it was sharper than it had been from the coticule but the edge was not as smooth and I have very slight burn.

Before I shave with it next I shall give it a dozen or so laps on my coti 1st and see what that does.

I'm still tempted by the Naniwa but in the meantime I'll explore this method.

in my limited experience going to a stone that will get you finer and sharper but not as smooth, followed by a few laps one something thats not as keen but smoother can get you a good comprimise at worst, or the best of both worlds at best.

if your coti on water is slow to cut but polishes, get sharp on a finer faster cutting stone, and do just enough laps on your coti with water or lather to get smooth.

it make sence to me. worked for me with my jnat(keen) and escher(smooth). try it for yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryan82

I have yet to find a razor that has not benefitted from a few laps on the Naniwa 12k. Yes, I like coticule edges, infact some of my edges remain untouched coticule edges, but the Naniwa does seem to give it that little bit "extra". Plus, it depends on how I feel like honing: 50-100 coti laps vs 10-15 on the Nani.

From money and consistency standpoints you can't go wrong by having a Naniwa 12k in your honing arsenal.

---

45 blades on the coti, and only 2 have approached the Asagi edge. A kind and generous forum member was so convinced I'd love the Nani 12, he bought one and had it sent to me. And he was right. For all the effort poured into the coti edge, the Nani takes them quickly to a better finish. I'm fully qualified as NOT a coti expert, but Ryan's point is hard to argue. 50-100 strokes on the coti for a 'maybe' improvement vs 10-20 on the Nani. Take it then to the asagi, and life is really good, though I have to say - right off the Nani is also very good. It was Gary H's posts that got me thinking of the nani. I'm grateful for his honest and generous sharing of his findings. And, of course to the kind member that pushed me into the Nani.

i new some one would question me. my answer is . lets just say i 'm struggling to get that las bit of keeness out of my coticule. which i don't mind admitting. in most cases i have no problem. To save time i find a thew laps on my naniwa 10k work s on getting that last bit of keness, and the razor shaves with the keeness i want and takes less time . in some cases i have found the razor to be sharper but quite as smooth as i'd like so i then finish on coti with 20 to 30 laps on water. this edge feels nicer on my skin, also i like the idea of a natural finish. the keeness is still there and the smoothness is as nice if not nicer for me.

I'm sure i read some where that you tryed the naniwas and also liked them. I', sure you said you finished at 10k naniwa and then used a natural finisher after wards, as you said you like natural finisher.

using coticule after a 8k norton never dulled the edge infact it gave a real nice finish and a sharp edge , ts the same for me after the 10k naniwa , i just do most of the wrk on a coticule then 10k if i feel it will hep save time by going to higher grit manmade. just somthing i have tryed and i found it worked for me with out the need to use paste

cheers gary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pinklather

45 blades on the coti, and only 2 have approached the Asagi edge. A kind and generous forum member was so convinced I'd love the Nani 12, he bought one and had it sent to me. And he was right. For all the effort poured into the coti edge, the Nani takes them quickly to a better finish. I'm fully qualified as NOT a coti expert, but Ryan's point is hard to argue. 50-100 strokes on the coti for a 'maybe' improvement vs 10-20 on the Nani. Take it then to the asagi, and life is really good, though I have to say - right off the Nani is also very good. It was Gary H's posts that got me thinking of the nani. I'm grateful for his honest and generous sharing of his findings. And, of course to the kind member that pushed me into the Nani.

---

You have just explained very well, better than i am with words, i have tryed both 10 k and 12k and your quite right it just saves time and messing. i've even finished with thury after 12k and it was an absalutley lovely edge. very similar to coticule. it amzed me how a 10k that is so fine yet they cut and polish so quik. i've not got a 12k now wished i'd kept on to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo7

Because he likes the results he gets with it? Just a guess. It's an interesting idea.

Gary, do you find that the edge retains the keenness of the naniwa but gains the smoothness of the coticule? This is an interesting idea, I wish I had a naniwa to try it out on!

---

thats the idea, i have found just that , all though its good to honethe razor using dilucot, test shave then add 10 laps on naniwa 10 or 12 k. test and shave another 10 laps and compare. then do 10 to 30 laps on coti with water , and test save again. see what you like. you can always do another 10 lap s on naniwa . i like the coti edge thats why i do it, its not often but its handy to have the naniwa. raspur hones using a similar method. he comes of slurry straight on to naniwa 10k and does quite a thew laps to finish then bio paste if he needs. watch his video.

i've used just that rich, i've gone .5 diamond spray followed up with 10 laps on crox spray and gave a real nice edge .

Jeltz,

As a 'newbie' user of BBWs & Cotis, I still routinely use the Naniwa 12k to finish after my Coti (I normally hone with a 1, 3, 8, 12 k Naniwa progression).

I have noticed that the edges finished with the Naniwa 12k after the coti cut my whiskers 'easier' than when I finish with the coti alone (I have a vintage La Veinette and a very hard La Verte).

I do not know the reason why this is so, but regardless my chops notice the difference :)

It might be (and probably is) that my skills with the Coti are not there yet !!

I have also recently tried going back to the La Verte Coti for a final few laps with water alone after the Naniwa 12k, and have found the edge very shaveable.

I have not done this with enough razors to satisfy myself that this last method of finishing is much superior to just finishing on the Naniwa 12k, but I shall find out eventually :)

As I shave with a straight razor for fun, and hone for fun, I really like the associated experimenting :)

I feel that as virtually every aspect of straight razor shaving is very personal and YMMV, why shouldn't the honing etc be the same; I very much doubt that there are absolutes that apply to everybody and every razor when it come to honing :) If it works for you, have at it !

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Thank you Gary for your explanation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gary haywood

i new some one would question me. my answer is . lets just say i 'm struggling to get that las bit of keeness out of my coticule. which i don't mind admitting. in most cases i have no problem. To save time i find a thew laps on my naniwa 10k work s on getting that last bit of keness, and the razor shaves with the keeness i want and takes less time . in some cases i have found the razor to be sharper but quite as smooth as i'd like so i then finish on coti with 20 to 30 laps on water. this edge feels nicer on my skin, also i like the idea of a natural finish. the keeness is still there and the smoothness is as nice if not nicer for me.

I'm sure i read some where that you tryed the naniwas and also liked them. I', sure you said you finished at 10k naniwa and then used a natural finisher after wards, as you said you like natural finisher.

using coticule after a 8k norton never dulled the edge infact it gave a real nice finish and a sharp edge , ts the same for me after the 10k naniwa , i just do most of the wrk on a coticule then 10k if i feel it will hep save time by going to higher grit manmade. just somthing i have tryed and i found it worked for me with out the need to use paste

cheers gary

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Thank you Gary for your explanation.

---

i try my best to explain, sham i no for a fact you can hone a razor and very well at that as i have tryed your edges, i would say they are defanatley top honed edges with out a shadow of dout i would say apart from bart one of the best i have shaved with , apart from my own, only joking!

i like most guys have acumalted a lot of honing gear and i try and use it if i can . its a hobby to me and i enjoy the differant results i get . what works for one person may not another , i'll always give somthing ago. I only have a 10k naniwa i just orderd a 12k naniwa.

cheers gary

Soooooo let me see if I read this right...

If you hone the razor to "shave ready sharpness" then use a finisher you get a really nice smooth shave????

Wow who would have thunk it???

Yes that was me being sarcastic :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Soooooo let me see if I read this right...

If you hone the razor to "shave ready sharpness" then use a finisher you get a really nice smooth shave????

Wow who would have thunk it???

Yes that was me being sarcastic :)

---

To my knowledge both the naniwa 10 and 12k as well as the coticule are considered finishers. Maybe our wiki is incorrect on that point. Not having used the naniwa line, I can only go from what I read.

"Shapton GS 16k-30k; Shapton 15k; Naniwa SS 10k-12k or Chosera 10k; Thuringians (including Eschers); various natural Japanese finishers; Charnley Forest; extra fine Coticules; some Arkansas hones"

I think Gary (please don't let me put words in your mouth, Gary) was talking about one finisher imparting a smoothness on top of a keenness acquired from the other finisher. Do you guys think the naniwa 10/12k is more of a sharpening stone than a finisher?

Actually the key words in my post are the same as some of us (Lynn, myself sham) have been espousing for years now...

"shave ready sharpness"

The grit at which you get there is in your hands, for some of us that is at 8k for some 10k and for others even higher.. This is something that every experienced honer says at one point or another, but no one listens.. If you can't shave comfortably at the 8k level with the synthetics a finisher is a waste of money...

So going from a "shave ready sharpness" point to a natural finisher is the same principle no matter what the grit is at...
That might be a 8k for you or a 10k or a 12k or even higher :)

Get it shaving your face comfortably, then use a finisher (regardless of type)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

If you can't shave comfortably at the 8k level with the synthetics a finisher is a waste of money...

---

I Completely agree with this, except the part that it has to be done with synthetics! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeltz

Hi I have a few razors, 4 of which come off my coticule with an awesome edge, Kropp, Sprock, Gold Dollar (yes really) and Seehund. The others will shave well but are not quite in the same league as far as sharpness goes Kukri, Hermes, Bassler (inox), Joseph Elliot Wedge, Allen & sons.

I am confident that the bevels and are good and, with the possible exception of the wedge, I'm confident that my technique on the OK razors has been the same as the on the great ones.

I was wondering if a 12K Naniwa superstone is likely to improve the edge after a coti or whether I should just accept that some razors are better than others.

---

I don't have the time to read through all the posts to this thread so forgive me if I repeat something already posted and don't give credit where due. Also, this will be the abbreviated version.

Your honing methods would be great, being the same for all razors, if all razors were equal. They are not. Holli mentioned that some razors do better on some hones and other not so good. This is a true statement and has to do with the hardness of the metal in the blade and the hardness of the grit and binder in the hones. I would venture a guess that the razors that are not as sharp as the others have a harder metal than the sharpest of your razors. More time on the hone, light pressure and constant flushing of the coti amy assist in obtaining a better edge. I harder hone would also help to a point. If the hone is too hard (the binder) the worn grit will not break free to expose new sharp grit and the hone will clog with removed metal. Metal rubbing on metal is not good for a sharp edge. If the hone's binders are too weak you will develop a slurry in no time. Gotta go. Hope this helps some.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo7

I Completely agree with this, except the part that it has to be done with synthetics! :)

---

I didn't say that, "Shave Ready Sharpness" is a point in time/sharpness on the edge, not a grit level or a type of stone/hone...
It also is a moving point because of differences in your face / the razor / and the hones used... (see Joed's and Dylan's posts)

We have over the years, grown to accept that level to be somewhere near the Norton 8k level, but that is just a reference point that many people can relate to it is not set in STONE lol

PS: Sorry for all the editing, I am at work while typing this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I didn't say that

---

My apologies. I didn't mean to misquote you, I was merely being facetious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

If you are in the position where you would have to buy the Naniwa 12k, you may want to first explore a less expensive alternative, like a pasted strop for example.

---

Well I was able to squeeze the extra bit of sharpness out of a stainless steel blade last night with 10 laps on a chromium oxide balsa strop. I've never had much success with crox before but this time is seemed to work a treat!

if you are looking for getting sharpening action from chro2 you should make 100 laps .
That will give to you some sharpness.
10 laps?
Chro2 is a such a fine and weak i would doubt it will sharpen the edge.
It may straighten the edge and you will feel sharper.
similar to stropping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeltz

Well I was able to squeeze the extra bit of sharpness out of a stainless steel blade last night with 10 laps on a chromium oxide balsa strop. I've never had much success with crox before but this time is seemed to work a treat!

---

I did read this thread again and again.
This is what i think.
What is the reason moving from one finisher to another and again to back same stone and so on.
I do believe you guys will be better learn your stones.
this is very important when you hone razors.
Someone needs to know what stone can give to you.
Lets say you are using 10k naniwa.
user has to find out what 10k naniwa can do .
it is maximum ability which you will sharpen your blade until that level.
Done move to next finer stone.
Your coticule may be finer then Naniwa 10k then it will be proper move to coticule and finish the edge.
in case your coticule isn't fine enough then moving to coticule after 10k naniwa wouldn't be right.

i have a coticule name of it Salm rock.
if i finish the edge on this coticule
There is no reason to move any other stone, Including escher, japanese finishing stone or any other synthetic.
I know This is the maximum sharpness i can get from this blade.
How many coticule out there similar to this stone?
i doubt if it is a lot.
let me bring up synthetic stone example.
if you are using Norton 8/4 k and sharpen your blade.
you will need to know when you have done on 4k level.
the easiest way to find out in my experiment is this.
when i move to 8k and after 5 -10 strokes if i see my 8k norton
gets metal particles(dirty) i stop right away.
i know i have moved to 8k too early.
i sharpen on 4k then repeat the process until when i move to 8k i don't see any metal removing.
make 10-15 strokes on 8 k and i am done.
i should mention there is a lot differences between natural finisher and synthetic.
This is why would be better not mix them up.
hope this helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeltz

Well I was able to squeeze the extra bit of sharpness out of a stainless steel blade last night with 10 laps on a chromium oxide balsa strop. I've never had much success with crox before but this time is seemed to work a treat!

---

it does work a treat as you found out for your self, some finish on coti after so they say .
gary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

let me bring up synthetic stone example.
if you are using Norton 8/4 k and sharpen your blade.
you will need to know when you have done on 4k level.
the easiest way to find out in my experiment is this.
when i move to 8k and after 5 -10 strokes if i see my 8k norton
gets metal particles(dirty) i stop right away.
i know i have moved to 8k too early.
i sharpen on 4k then repeat the process until when i move to 8k i don't see any metal removing.
make 10-15 strokes on 8 k and i am done.

---

That's very helpful; thank you!

I think it's hard to compare _a_ coticule or coticules in general unless you're one of the lucky or indulgent few who have honed on lots of them. I swapped stones for a while with another user; he was curious to try my extremely slow one and I wanted to see one actually darken slurry. He sent me his fastest. I learned a lot from that, but mainly that a single coticule might not be a reasonable honer AND finisher, that it might only be useful--and then extremely so--as a final finisher.

I'm still learning my own collection of coticules (2 rectangles and 3 bouts), so really can't discuss subtleties, only the extremes I've been able to experience for myself. I think some coticules are apples and some are oranges. In my own experience, some can improve a 10k edge and some can't.

Sham helped me learn how to hone and his example of not moving to the norton 8K to early (see swarf then you're not ready to be on 8K) is very good advice. Since learning this I never feel like I can have bad shaves after the 8K. I actually tried a week where I only used 8K edge and the shaves were nice ones, not as good as say my Escher shaves but nice.

The only way I see moving to the Naniwa 12K and then the coticule after the coticule was used BEFORE the 12K is that the 12K cuts fast. This would help thin the bevel more than just using the coticule so when you go BACK to the coticule the edge is more to where it should've been in the first place. I think working enough on the 4/8K stone would do the same job but easier than the Naniwa 12K.

Gary, have you tried instead of going to the naniwa 12K and then the coticule going to the Norton stone 4/8 and seeing the max you can get on that stone first? I mean 10-15 passes on the 8K with no swarf at all on the stone?

I am curious, I don't know if you still use the Norton stone anymore or if you have one.

i still have norton s. that would be very useful also to may be a small pyramid or just 8k. I'm using my lpb at present with realy nice results i have to say . as you mention the 12k does cut a little quiker than a coticule with water so it speeds things up. tghis is why i think it can help any one lacking that tiniest and i mean tiny last bit of keness, the 4k/8k would defanatley work even quiker .

gary

If you have a BBW that cuts well, a COTI that cuts well, and NAKAYAMA that cuts well, you are in business. And if you have an ESCHER that cuts well, you are "finished".

However. the NANI 12k is a superb touch-up stone.

JERRY
_____

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I did read this thread again and again.
This is what i think.
What is the reason moving from one finisher to another and again to back same stone and so on.
I do believe you guys will be better learn your stones.
this is very important when you hone razors.
Someone needs to know what stone can give to you.
Lets say you are using 10k naniwa.
user has to find out what 10k naniwa can do .
it is maximum ability which you will sharpen your blade until that level.
Done move to next finer stone.
Your coticule may be finer then Naniwa 10k then it will be proper move to coticule and finish the edge.
in case your coticule isn't fine enough then moving to coticule after 10k naniwa wouldn't be right.

i have a coticule name of it Salm rock.
if i finish the edge on this coticule
There is no reason to move any other stone, Including escher, japanese finishing stone or any other synthetic.
I know This is the maximum sharpness i can get from this blade.
How many coticule out there similar to this stone?
i doubt if it is a lot.
let me bring up synthetic stone example.
if you are using Norton 8/4 k and sharpen your blade.
you will need to know when you have done on 4k level.
the easiest way to find out in my experiment is this.
when i move to 8k and after 5 -10 strokes if i see my 8k norton
gets metal particles(dirty) i stop right away.
i know i have moved to 8k too early.
i sharpen on 4k then repeat the process until when i move to 8k i don't see any metal removing.
make 10-15 strokes on 8 k and i am done.
i should mention there is a lot differences between natural finisher and synthetic.
This is why would be better not mix them up.
hope this helps.

---

I have a questions about metal removing. It seems you are saying not to move to the next higher grit hone until you don't see any metal on the hone you are on. Won't there always be metal being removed from the razor no matter how sharp the edge is? I hope this is not a dumb question.

If the surface of the hone has any abrasive quality to it, yes, you will be removing metal.

I think what he's saying is an edge that isn't quite finished on a Norton 4k being brought to a Norton 8k is that larger particles (swarf) are removed and are more visible to the naked eye. I know when I'm honing towards the end of the 8k I don't use much water (it sticks around) and it's very clear.

Also if you think about it, a rougher edged razor is gouging into the smooth surface of the Norton 8k and makes for a rougher "ride". You can get there eventually but there's a price to impatience.. might as well wait until the right time to move on or you'll just be spending more time on the next hone.

i never said that.
you will remove metal always.
how much is the question.
if you are in lower grit level you will remove more compare to higher grit stone.
Basically when you go from 4k to 8k norton only you will see very less metal moving.
if you have done job correctly below 8k level.
Now lets say you have 6k stone then when you move from 6k to 8k you will see less then 4k-8k level.
i hope now i am clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mvcrash

I have a questions about metal removing. It seems you are saying not to move to the next higher grit hone until you don't see any metal on the hone you are on. Won't there always be metal being removed from the razor no matter how sharp the edge is? I hope this is not a dumb question.

---