Thread: naniwa combo vs norton combo

Originally Posted by Memorael

So, I am guessing that what you are saying is that you get a better shave out of the norton system than the Naniwa?

Yes, I am saying exactly this - I get a much better shave off Norton 8k than off Naniwa 5k, and comparable to the shave off Naniwa 8k. Do you have a different experience?

Originally Posted by gugi

Yes, I am saying exactly this - I get a much better shave off Norton 8k than off Naniwa 5k, and comparable to the shave off Naniwa 8k. Do you have a different experience?

Never shaved of a Naniwa 5k or 8k... I should try it though to get a more thorough feeling of whats going on. But this whole thing does get me all confused now. I've known for a long time that grit size isn't everything but I figured the difference between a 5k and 8k is pretty large. Now I am not so sure. I could also think that maybe since you guys have been using the norton for so long you just have it dialed in.

BTW do you have pics with the scratch pattern? because I have seen photos of the scratch pattern of nortons and naniwas and they don't seem to be comparable as you stated. The norton 8k looks less refined, I am going to see if I can find the photos so I can post them.

It is a significant difference, and of course the steel can make huge difference too. The exact same hone will produce much finer edge on a very very hard steel than it will on a regularly hardened steel, acting in effect as a higher grit hone would on the regular steel.
I've shaved off 1.2k dmt but that was just one razor that got fine enough edge off that hone, suitable for shaving.

The grit wars are never ending............

Very simply, what we are saying is that the size of the abrasive particle is only a beginning measurement, a starting point. As has been said so well there are many other factors that determine the effect of a specific hone on a specific razor. Particle size is only the beginning.

With respect to the stated 3 micron size for the Norton 8K. I went looking at the Norton & St. Gobain websites but was unable to find the technical info. I did find some sellers websites that state 3 micron but no reference/link back to the mfg. technical data.
Regarding the ANSI/CAMI/FEPA/JIS and other standards......there have been revisions/versions over time, understandably , so when a reference is made then it must also include the version so it can be seen that it is difficult to compare apples to apples.

A new person can surmise from this thread that it really boils down to using a specific hone on a specific razor to know what it will do ( unfortunately for the new guys). The members here at SRP have really done a lot of work trying out and comparing various hones. We hesitate to say that one hone is the best because that would not be accurate. But we can say which brands are in the top tier and in general tell a new guy what hones are suitable for a specific task on a razor and most importantly which to not use for that task.

This fascination/addiction to hones that we have is ongoing and I hope we all keep it in perspective.

Just my $.02,

"Glen's" grit system is easy, I can shave well off the Norton 8k, the Naniwa SS 8k, or the Shapton GS 8k
I also know that a Norton 4k is lower in grit than a Norton 8k and a Naniwa SS 5k is lower then grit than a Naniwa SS 8k and that the Shapton GS 4k is below a Shapton GS 8k.. I also know that going to a Naniwa SS 12k or the Shapton 16k gets me a smoother feel on the face then any of the aforementioned 8k's.. Other than that I don't KNOW much else, regardless of what any grit chart tells me...

So Glen's grit system says that the numbers on the hone are only good for comparing that hone, to another hone of the same brand, and series, (ie: Naniwa SS does not even compare to a Naniwa Chosera) that is end of the Glen Grit System

(this is why I hate Grit charts)

You know guys at the end of the day it makes sense to have the pro's severely recommending the norton 4k/8k combo regardless of the grit size and micron size and what not (I have been a rigorous preacher of grits not being just grits). Since that stone is the one most widely beat to death from use. I learned for one part that incredibly large jumps in micron size doesn't necessarily mean a smoother better shave (and I should know, I have experienced it first hand). So I think adopting a mentality similar to the spyderco bench stones in terms of, as Glen states, how smooth a shave you get from the stone and the razor combination.

Glen ! I think you just invented the hone theory of relativity. All hones are relative to each other by brand only

Originally Posted by Memorael

I am aware of the special case in which Spyderco stones fall in. Just for kicks, I thought you would like to know that they aren't even close to being 2k the micron size of the abrasive ranges from 15 to 25 microns, rating on the Japanese system at around 700 to about 1k. Which of course you are well aware is a huge difference. No grit size has been determined by the makers of such stone specifically because they work way different than waterstones (which is what we are talking about).

There is no other sharpening stone that compares to the performance of these in terms of functionality. I would also like to throw in that the abrasive they use are artificial sapphires which I think is kinda neat and I also believe that after the world ends there is going to be a whole lot of these things lying around since they are virtually indestructible and can only be scratched, to my knowledge with a lot of arm grease and a DMT xxc preferably. Which will become a useless piece of metal once all the diamonds fall out in about 1 hour if your lucky. There is also another unique trait of these stones which is that by the way they cut they tend to make really deep grooves in the steel every so often because of steel balling up and if you have used one long enough you will notice that even though they give a comfortable shave every once in a while they will pull one or maybe two hairs which is unacceptable for me.

If you still have your Spiderco UF hone give it a single spritz with
0.5 micron diamond or cubic boron carbide and then hone some
old razor with lots of spine wear on it. Walking circles up and down
is a good thing for this.

Then without discarding the slurry finish hone a razor that needs
a touch up. It may take a couple attempts but I suspect you will like the
shave you get when your spidy begins to have sparkling flat polished grain tops.

The DMT is the wrong thing for these hones. It took a lot of
tinkering with loose grits to recover my Spidy after I did the
bad DMT thing to it.

At this time I am using my spidy conditioned with 0.25 diamond and
I get a very smooth nice edge but it is a slow. Slow permits
me to touch up hone to my hearts content. Now I just rinse it
and hone... no spray.

Lacking loose abrasives use slurry from any and all your hones
to help worry the DMT craters from it.

Hello to All,

+1 on niftyshavings' observations; I do my touch ups as he does on a Spyderco UF & 0.1 or 0.25 micron diamond spray, and have got (for me) excellent results

I think as long as you have stones that give you the results you need, then 'grits', the stone type (Norton, Naniwa, Shapton, House Brick (!)) etc don't really matter

As many have pointed out here at SRP, our fore-fathers did not have the vast array of hones we have today and they seemed to cope OK

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Lotsa opinions out here... here's fishing for one more:

I mentioned that my current CrOx solution is what I originally got via ruprazor (rough side of the filly strop). Should I just buy more of the stuff when I get these hones and continue to use that? Or should I invest in a balsa solution? To be honest, I'd go with a ready made solution (the whipped dog thing looks handy) rather than bother going out and buying a piece of balsa wood and sanding it... though, after saying that, it doesn't really sound that difficult, eh?

Was going to purchase tonight... probably going to check on finishing solutions before that. I never noticed a problem using the CrOx on the filly before. Others seemed to think it was ok... then again, these were my first two razors I ever owned, so what did I know in terms of comparison? Looks like a little more research is in order.