Thread: naniwa combo vs norton combo

I've got Norton 1K, 4K, 8K and a Naniwa 12K. I think they make a very nice combo. The Norton 8K puts a great edge on a blade. I use the Naniwa 12K, then CrOx on leather to put a final finish on the edge. You only need the lower grits if you need to do some serious honing, or reset a bevel.

I'd get a Norton 4/8 combo and some CrOx to start. The Naniwa would be a nice addition to get next.
Try royalshave.com. I think they have naniwas. Japan woodworker (or something like that) might have them too. Lots of sites sell them, you just need to look closely.

Originally Posted by Gamma

In my honing adventures, the 8k Naniwa and 8k Super Stone did not bring a blade to the same place. In fact I used the 8k Naniwa to finish after the 8k Norton until I got a 12k.
I'm not certain about particle size of either - grit alone doesn't tell the whole story. I compared the 8k Norton to the 5k SS after maxing out the same blade on each a couple of times.

Gamma, is this a typo in the first sentence? Did you mean 8k Norton and a 8k Super Stone (commonly abbreviated SS)? I'll get back to you, Gamma.

Originally Posted by Memorael

I read somewhere that the norton 8k grit size is about 3 micron putting it on the JIIS scale at around 4k just for the record.

and...

Originally Posted by randydance062449

I do not think that is accurate.

Randy and I have had the mentor/disciple dance going for awhile. I've touched his hones and he's touched mine. Heck, we've even arranged to have our identical hones touch each other! (Spyderco ultra-fines... sexy scraping...). So, to say we're on intimate terms isn't an exaggeration...

Originally Posted by Gamma

I compared the 8k Norton to the 5k SS after maxing out the same blade on each a couple of times.

A brief history where I'm coming from. I have two combination Norton stones since early 2008. 220/1000 & 4k/8k, the 4k/8k "hecho in Mexico", and ache-oh it IS-oh: the 4,000 is evil, has micro-pits that swarf lodges in and destroys the fine edge of any razor unfortunate enough to travel on it. So I got a Naniwa SS 5k, then a SS 3k. The Naniwa SS 5k was okay, I guess. I didn't like it as the intermediate before the Norton 8k. So I got the Naniwa 3k to bridge between the Norton 1k and Naniwa 5k. Now that I have used it (Naniwas) longer it helps, and now I do the full progression from 220/1000 to Naniwa SS 3k, 5k, then back to Norton, finishing on Spyderco ultra-fine. I felt the Naniwa 5k was not efficient or appropriate as a bridge between the Norton 1k and 8k.

They are softer and wear away faster, deforming under hard razor steel. They require more frequent lapping then the Nortons. They work good, are "comfier" which I attribute to their gel-like release beyond swarf, is that the binder? I guess that's good for honing fine edges, but it is a different hone set-up. I've read of someone being surprised how nice the edge off a Naniwa SS 5k was from their comparison to a Norton 8k, and under the microscope I can believe it. The grit rating system is not close enough to be equivalent.

Originally Posted by gugi

Both will get you at more or less the same place, the difference is mainly in the feedback. I have both (actually the 1-5-8-12 naniwa) but I don't really use the norton since I've got the naniwas. I don't like the porosity of the norton 4k, and that's pretty much my reason - just a matter of a whim which I can afford to have. The dmtc is nice, I have no regrets about getting it even though it's kind of expensive compared to say sandpaper or the norton lapping plate.

I understand about the thirstiness of the Norton 4k, but the highest layer of my own Norton 4k, which was the only part of it that worked right (before I lapped it off) was a fast metal remover and was the perfect bridge in the Norton system. The Naniwas deserve special treatment in regards to their swelling with water. I give the Naniwa Super Stones special attention and always make pencil grids on them before honing, being sure to spray them with water a few times before the initial lapping, keeping track of time (5-10 minutes) and lapping off pencil marks before honing. If my honing takes them out past one razor (rare for me) I'm sure to keep them constantly lapped due to swelling. That means I have to lap and chamfer them several times during use. Not the best for newbies compared to Nortons. But that's as someone who's used to really nice (to me) edges, maybe a newbie wouldn't be so discerning of the final product (edge).

I like that the Naniwa 3k & 5k Super Stones keep water on their surface well, but I don't think they fit into the Norton system as well as Norton's own 4k. I am not a collector of hones, I'd have preferred to just have a functionally complete Norton setup and finish with the Naniwa 12k (don't have one, never used one) or my Spyderco Ultra-Fine. I think Naniwas are trickier for inexperienced honers due to swelling with water, which outweighs the benefit of water on the surface.

Now I like them all, because I've developed an individual relationship to each hone and have in hand a water sprayer, pencil, DMT 8x3 coarse, and chamfer edges with a Spyderco fine on higher-grit hones (as well as smoothing out past lapping with the DMT). But I think Norton-Naniwa differences merit special attention and descriptions and advice in the wiki and discussion (esp. for beginners).

It's hard enough for beginners just getting their honing technique down!

P.S. I don't want an established honing mentor like Randy to be associated too closely with me, I am my own person and can make mistakes and have my own preferences. Don't judge Randy based on my unscrupulous and vile behavior!

Heh... yeah, a typo, sorry 'bout that. Fixed now.

Originally Posted by AxelH

I think Naniwas are trickier for inexperienced honers due to swelling with water, which outweighs the benefit of water on the surface.

I don't agree. My naniwas tend not to be perfectly flat between honings, when they dry out, and I only lap them every now and then, say every 5 honings primarily to get rid of any swarf glazing, just because I'm too lazy for the extra 20 seconds with the DMTC. I haven't really noticed a difference to the resulting edges.
May be you're exaggerating the effect of 'swelling', or may be I'm not inexperienced enough.

I think it's a well established truism that staying with the same line of hones throughout the honing progression works better than mixing different types of hones.

Originally Posted by gurana

Been about a year since I've shaved with my straights... at some point the chromium oxide pasted strop just wasn't cutting it any more. I've put off getting a hone long enough, I think.

I was originally going to go with the norton 4000/8000 combo stone. Probably the most highly suggested stone for beginners, and it seems versatile enough for my needs. Straight Razor Designs also carries a naniwa 3000/8000 combo. Any input on that stone? My guess is that, if anything, they're about the same, or close enough, that the naniwa isn't worth the extra bump in price.

I was also considering the Naniwa value pack (5000/8000/12000),
....snip...

I often use the Naniwa 12k after a Norton 4k/8k combo and like the edge
I get a lot. The Norton 8k and the Naniwa 12k do seem to follow
each other naturally for me.

If the Naniwa value pack (5000/8000/12000) is out of stock the vendor
may have missed a sale All things being equal it does pay
to stay with one hone maker because it can avoid odd differences
in how grit numbers are reported. Like I said the No4k/8k then Na12k
progression works very well and is in my opinion a proven exception to
the one vendor rule.

Both Norton and Naniwa hones need a "flat lap" solution. A DMT
is a good choice. When lapping for flat do not go crazy, lapping
a thin "half a sheet of paper" worth each time will keep the hone flat and
present you with a modest slurry to start honing with. Dilute the
slurry in two or three steps so the final 1/3 of your hone strokes
on each hone use clear water to get the max out of these hones.

Enjoy......

Originally Posted by AxelH

...snip...
I think Naniwas are trickier for inexperienced honers due to swelling with water, which outweighs the benefit of water on the surface
....snip...

good point... yet.

Not too tricky if you know the trick.

Wet your DMT run some figure eights (2 or 3)
on the Naniwa. Then hone the razor diluting the slurry
to clear water as you go. In the one min that
this takes for one razor swelling is not an issue.

Do let the hone dry slowly between use. I now wrap mine
in parchment paper (kitchen stuff) to keep rubbish
off the surface. Plastic keeps them too wet for too long.
Reserve plastic for those folk that use them day in and day out.

For a touchup I have no problem with
using a Naniwa 12k dry and occasionally
rubbing it clean under running water when
done. In fact using a Na12k as a weekly/ fortnightly
five or six stroke dry barber hone like touchup hone
does work very well.

My "trick" is not the only one. It works for me.

I never had problems with Super Stones swelling or not being flat enough.

I have the Naniwa lapping stone and superstone 3k, 5k, 8K and 12k. I get a great honing on them without worrying about roughing up the spines. I also have no issues with swelling or them not being flat. I lap them about every 5 honings.

Pabster

Originally Posted by Gamma

I never had problems with Super Stones swelling or not being flat enough.

Agreed. I've had my Naniwa's for some time and have had no problems. It may be due to the fact that I use gssixgun's system, of making a few figure 8's on them prior to honing, to create a slurry with my DMT C. Basically, they're getting lapped prior to use. I really don't do much honing, I only maintain my own razors.

Originally Posted by Memorael

I read somewhere that the norton 8k grit size is about 3 micron putting it on the JIIS scale at around 4k just for the record.

There's more to it than grit size. The Spyderco UF is made of 2k grit particles but its used as a finisher. You have to also consider if the makers are quoting max. particle size or average particle size. Another thing is particle friability or how it fractures. IIRC Nortons are made of AlOx so they will break up differently & cut differently to the newer ceramics.