Thread: Naniwa 12k vs Sigma 13k

Originally Posted by PA23-250

Haven't tried them, but after what Oz has told me about them, I'm really tempted after I either get more work or do more honing for barber shops & can rationalize the expense. Seem like what I'm looking for in synthetics these days.

Stefan, what has your experience been w/ them (speed,feedback,lapping needed, etc.)?

I did not like the 1k , too little feedback, the 2,8, 12k are great. Speed of 8k and 12k is slower than Super Stones but the bevel polishes a bit more.
It is then very easy to go to my Jnat finisher just with tomonagura and no other prepolishing needed.

I used the naniwa 8k ss today and after that the sigma 13k to
check the mirror finish. It seems the naniwa gives a better mirror
finish whereas the sigma gives more of high natural stone finish, still
mirror like but less than the naniwa 8k ss.

Originally Posted by SharpMan

I used the naniwa 8k ss today and after that the sigma 13k to
check the mirror finish. It seems the naniwa gives a better mirror
finish whereas the sigma gives more of high natural stone finish, still
mirror like but less than the naniwa 8k ss.

Polish is an odd and interesting component... Some hone vendors mention that the
chemistry of their binder and matrix polishes better. As always the
only test of importance is the shave test.

I have noticed that at the final stages of honing this frosted vs. mirror
finish difference lets me see how well my hones are working and how
well they are lapped to an identical profile (flat).

Slurry at this stage also has important interactions... I have moved away
from all but a soft natural slurry at 8k and finer on man made hones. Note:
I have been using an extra extra coarse DMT to lap my hones flat and it does
generate chunks so I have started to use a carborundum 101 razor hone to clean
the surface of swarf and soften the slurry for the razor. I think Glenn has mentioned an
experiment with a translucent Arkansas rubbing stone to much the same end with
good results.

Also my DMT leaves scratches that I use to gauge the need to lap the hone back to flat.
As swarf builds up I can see "clean trenches" and only when the hone wears enough
for those to vanish do I lap for flat again. This is very visible on the 8k side of
a Norton combo.

I used the naniwa 8k ss today and after that the sigma 13k to
check the mirror finish. It seems the naniwa gives a better mirror
finish whereas the sigma gives more of high natural stone finish, still
mirror like but less than the naniwa 8k ss.

I have noticed similar. The Sigma 13k Select II does indeed scratch the bevel, not unlike natural stones.
If you are interested, I am working on a review regarding the Sigma Select II 13k and can provide some images I made for comparison.

The Naniwa SS8k and SS10k provided a very high grade mirror. I dare say this mirror will only be outperformed by industrial grade 3M lapping film.
So far I tried Shapton Pro, Shapton GS, Naniwa Chosera, Suehiro Gold and the above mentioned Sigma 13k. None of them came close to the Mirror of the SS.

Here is a picture of a bevel set with 3M lapping film. The progression was 5µm silicon carbide, 3µm aluminium oxyde, 1µm aluminium oxyde and for good measure 1µm diamond lapping film.
That is what the bevel and edge looked like



Magnification ~40x. Almost impossible to focus on. I used different angles and light settings, always the same result


Magnification ~120x. The edge looks flawed, but it is not! The distortions are halos from the camera and lighting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This polish has been set with a constant sharpening direction. All scratches from the lapping film where in the same direction (and have been removed completely, anyway).
The Sigma Select II 13k I used with a different sharpening direction! 40 laps have been done in the direction from top left, to bottom right of the image, whereas the bevel setting has been done in the opposite direction.
I finished with 20 laps perpendicular to the edge. The only source for all scratches in these directions is the Sigma 13k. There was no possibility of "underlying scratches popping up" (a theory I do not subscribe to).


Magnification ~40x. There are more pictures with different light settings, all show these scratch marks

For the final test of the edge, I executed a micro bevel with a second layer of tape. The resulting edge was fairly straight and only slightly jagged at this high rate of magnification.
The edge was similar to that of the Shapton GS 16k and better than Naniwa SS10k.

Magnification ~120x

Now, to the naked eye the polish does look good. Depending on the angle of light you may get a very dark luster but if you are looking for it you will find the scratches as fairly thin white lines with the naked eye.
The loupe will reveal these quickly. If you are not striving for the perfect polish, the Sigma 13k may be interesting for you! The Shapton GS 16k produces similar results; to the naked eye the luster is impeccable (thus slightly better than the Sigma 13k). But the loupe will reveal even thinner and more shallow white lines.
Under magnification you will get something like this:



Note this is a different razor (with a much smaller bevel), different light settings and a different stone!
So these images are not really comparable

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I have noticed similar. The Sigma 13k Select II does indeed scratch the bevel, not unlike natural stones.
If you are interested, I am working on a review regarding the Sigma Select II 13k and can provide some images I made for comparison.

The Naniwa SS8k and SS10k provided a very high grade mirror. I dare say this mirror will only be outperformed by industrial grade 3M lapping film.
So far I tried Shapton Pro, Shapton GS, Naniwa Chosera, Suehiro Gold and the above mentioned Sigma 13k. None of them came close to the Mirror of the SS.

Here is a picture of a bevel set with 3M lapping film. The progression was 5µm silicon carbide, 3µm aluminium oxyde, 1µm aluminium oxyde and for good measure 1µm diamond lapping film.
That is what the bevel and edge looked like



Magnification ~40x. Almost impossible to focus on. I used different angles and light settings, always the same result


Magnification ~120x. The edge looks flawed, but it is not! The distortions are halos from the camera and lighting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This polish has been set with a constant sharpening direction. All scratches from the lapping film where in the same direction (and have been removed completely, anyway).
The Sigma Select II 13k I used with a different sharpening direction! 40 laps have been done in the direction from top left, to bottom right of the image, whereas the bevel setting has been done in the opposite direction.
I finished with 20 laps perpendicular to the edge. The only source for all scratches in these directions is the Sigma 13k. There was no possibility of "underlying scratches popping up" (a theory I do not subscribe to).


Magnification ~40x. There are more pictures with different light settings, all show these scratch marks

For the final test of the edge, I executed a micro bevel with a second layer of tape. The resulting edge was fairly straight and only slightly jagged at this high rate of magnification.
The edge was similar to that of the Shapton GS 16k and better than Naniwa SS10k.

Magnification ~120x

Now, to the naked eye the polish does look good. Depending on the angle of light you may get a very dark luster but if you are looking for it you will find the scratches as fairly thin white lines with the naked eye.
The loupe will reveal these quickly. If you are not striving for the perfect polish, the Sigma 13k may be interesting for you! The Shapton GS 16k produces similar results; to the naked eye the luster is impeccable (thus slightly better than the Sigma 13k). But the loupe will reveal even thinner and more shallow white lines.
Under magnification you will get something like this:



Note this is a different razor (with a much smaller bevel), different light settings and a different stone!
So these images are not really comparable

Excellent info Les! Just wondering though, if the naniwa 8 and 10k SS give a
better mirror finish, wouldn't this mean a better edge? I know one can't compare
natural stones to synthetics, but we are comparing synthetics with each other.

I was always under the impression that the shapton pro30k gave the best mirror
finish of all synthetics. What is it about the naniwa 8,10,12k that gives such high
mirror finish?

So do you think the sigma13k is really 13k?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Excellent info Les! Just wondering though, if the naniwa 8 and 10k SS give a
better mirror finish, wouldn't this mean a better edge?
Thanks.

I am not sure if the level of polish can be related to edge quality, the binders are different and that plays a big role in the final result.
For example Chosera and Super stone use same abrasive but different binding method, the resulting edges are not identical.

I think Mainman is absolutely right. The polish of a bevel does not relate to the quality of the edge.
There is no doubt in my mind the sigma 13k is a very fine stone. Since grit and microns don't compare from one manufacturer to another it is impossible to tell how fine the stone really is. In my opinion the produceable edge is finer than the ss10k and equally as fine as the gs 16k. I think one can get very good shaves although I have encountered some microchips on a microscopic level. Nothing to worry about, me thinks.

Originally Posted by mainaman

I did not like the 1k , too little feedback, the 2,8, 12k are great. Speed of 8k and 12k is slower than Super Stones but the bevel polishes a bit more.
It is then very easy to go to my Jnat finisher just with tomonagura and no other prepolishing needed.

I've heard the 12k Pro makes a great prepolisher before a Jnat, but you say you feel it's slower than the SS? From what I've read, the pros are supposed to be faster than the GS, which in turn are supposed to be faster than the Supers, but I haven't used any Shaptons so I'm curious.

Originally Posted by PA23-250

I've heard the 12k Pro makes a great prepolisher before a Jnat, but you say you feel it's slower than the SS? From what I've read, the pros are supposed to be faster than the GS, which in turn are supposed to be faster than the Supers, but I haven't used any Shaptons so I'm curious.

slow is relative IME, 20 laps more is not that bad, indeed I like the 12k Pro better for going to Jnat.