Thread: Naniwa 12k vs Sigma 13k

ok gents, I have nani 12k, and drooling on sigma 13k, so I need some comments if someone have tried them both.

I have not tried the Sigma 13k, so take what I say for what it is worth
There are very small chanses that the 1k difference will make any noticeable difference per se.
The Naniwa 12k is a great finisher, perhaps you should look into a Natural finisher or a Shapton 30K?

Originally Posted by Birnando

I have not tried the Sigma 13k, so take what I say for what it is worth
There are very small chanses that the 1k difference will make any noticeable difference per se.
The Naniwa 12k is a great finisher, perhaps you should look into a Natural finisher or a Shapton 30K?

Cmon, you should know that grit is not everything. Binder, abresive types, hardness are other important things too. Two different branded 12k synthetic can be very different. Anyway, I have read some comments that sigma 13k puts nani 12 to a shame. I find nani 12k so so, looking for a better mirror polisher. Charnley forests are expensive than gold and I dont think shapton is a sensible option but will definetely go for some jnats in future. But for the time I really need some review about sigma. That stone looks promising.

I have also not used the 13K ceramic Sigma, but have been in discussions about it with someone who uses one. According to them the 13K produces an edge that is as fine or perhaps finer than the Shapton 16K ceramic on glass. Apparently the micron rating is smaller for the Sigma (0.94 for Shapton, 0.74 for the Sigma). Apparently the Sigma also releases some grit (makes slurry) more easily than the Shapton 16K GS, but is controllable.

Please note that this is second-hand information - I have not used the stone myself but am seriously considering trying it if my experiments into the other Sigma stones I am ordering work out.

James.

I have one. (the sigma power 13k).

I had a naniwa superstone 12k, but sold it before I got into straight razor shaving - at least before I got into it on a daily basis and knew what I was doing. I sold it because it's a little bit of a wheezer in tough tool steels that a woodworker might use.

Still have a shapton pro 15k, a chosera 10k, a chinese stone (from woodcraft - it's a good one), a pile of japanese stones, including two razor specific asagis (one a fabulous buttery antique), the kitayama 8k (or whatever number they call it now), and some others, but you get the point.

I've tried the GS 16ks (two of them, the two different types) and used the 30k on tools (not razors).

I horse-traded with Stu Tierney (we've sort of known each other since before he had a store) and ended up with a 13k in exchange for some wares, like a DMT, a bunch of loose diamonds and some other razory stuff (I suppose that's a disclaimer that I didn't directly pay for my stone, but got it in that exchange at a time when I was actually buying other stones from Stu).

Anyway, to the meat of the comment - it releases just a bit of mud, but not a lot. It's not soft, it's not hard. On tools, it reminds me of the feel of a king stone, but without being so soft - it has that smoothness in use, though. It is my favorite synthetic stone for razors, it is not as brash on the edge as the chosera and shapton and does a good job for sharpness (to extend the comments from above posts - you can't go by number, it's clearly finer in use than shaptons 15k pro stone and 16K GS).

I think anyone who would like any synthetic stone will like it on razors. My face will not tolerate most synthetic stones, and I like to go straight from stone to bare strop, but I don't recall having any irritation straight off of it with a bit of stropping. I know I've made my face red with the chosera (which I think is just a bit to aggressive for razors for me) and with the shapton.

I'd also say that the sigma is less critical about water than the shapton (it can do pleasant things with all levels right up until right before it dries off), and it doesn't load (my shapton pro stone will load a bit with some razors, leaving me to have to lap it if the loading looks like it might be scratching the edge - I really don't like to abrade the surface of a finish stone right before I'm done with an edge).

If you have 50 hones already, I don't know if it's going to give you anything that you can't get in combination from other hones, but it is definitely finer than the shapton pro 15k and the 16k glass, and while I like the chosera a little better for tools (because it cuts so fast), I like the SP 13 the most for razors and i like the feel it has with a razor on it - it's got a bit of draw, but a pleasing smooth draw (like a smooth mud feeling), not an aggressive biting draw.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Please note that this is second-hand information - I have not used the stone myself but am seriously considering trying it if my experiments into the other Sigma stones I am ordering work out.

James.

Which other stones did you order? The feedback from everyone on the woodworking sites has been entirely favorable for the SPs. I'm set in my ways with shaptons and a gaggle of natural stones, but the two SPs I've tried have been nice stones and I can get along very well with them.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Which other stones did you order? The feedback from everyone on the woodworking sites has been entirely favorable for the SPs. I'm set in my ways with shaptons and a gaggle of natural stones, but the two SPs I've tried have been nice stones and I can get along very well with them.

I ordered the 1K/10K SP Select II set with holders from Stu. They just arrived this morning and I am looking at them as I type. I'm looking forward to trying them out to see what I can get out of them. There's been the suggestion that these stones release too many particles that can bump around on the edge. I want to see if that is the case, and if it is whether there are ways to compensate.

James.

It'll be interesting to see how you like those for razors. The 1k should be a super fast bevel setter no matter what kind of steel is used in a razor and no matter how hard it is.

I bought an SPII 3k (sort of an oddball, but I got it for a specific purpose) at the same time I traded around goods for the 13k pro. The SPII 3k is very fast on really hard steel with a lot of chromium - it cuts everything uniformly. I didn't use it on a razor yet (I think I didn't, at least), but I got it for japanese planes to replace an aoto.

Scratch pattern is very uniform, and contrary to my expectations, it works well without soaking it (which is a bigger deal for woodworking where you may sharpen at unexpected times or not at all in a shop session). Because it's always releasing particles, it feels like using a natural stone with a slurry all the time.

If you're following it (the 10k) up with a natural hone or a loaded strop, I can't see how it will matter whether or not the abrasive is loose and tumbling - the particles should be too small to do anything a finish hone or a strop wouldn't remove right away.

It wasn't the 10K I was concerned about, it was more the feedback I had been given about the 1K from people who had tried it and the potential to bang up the edge a bit at the bevel setting stage. The main issue suggested was that the stone continually releases new particulates, so that even if they break down to smaller particles during honing the continual release of new stuff voids any effect the broken down stuff might have?? Maybe I am not describing that very well. There was some concern that the edge off the bevel setter was a bit beat up, I think that summarises the feedback I got - from admittedly only 2 people, only one of whom had actually tried the Select II 1K. Not a big sample size.

When I told Stu what I was going to use these for, he cracked out his set and ran a razor across them so he could give me some info (in case I wanted to back out, I think - very nice guy is Stu ). His main comment, if I remember correctly, was that the 1K felt a bit gritty under the razor, but was a fast cutter. He took the 1K edge straight to the 10K stone - he said it was a bit of work but he got there in the end, I think. Not that he was recommending I do so (and not that I ever would do that), but I think it was just a little cutting speed test for the 10K.

I have plenty of options in the intermediate grits, and plenty of options post 10K as well. So it will be interesting to see how these two stones fit in with my others, and how I might adapt my progressions to include, and get the most out of, these new stones.

So, do you think you will get the 13K ceramic? I have to admit I am interested.

James.

Yes, that's the one I "traded" for - when stu and I trade things back and forth, they are for keeps. Stu and I have had a bit of a one-up contest (as well as arguments about what does what), and the "trading" isn't that organized (i.e., i didn't send him a DMT and wait for what I got in return, but I think he's one up on me now). It's an odd situation. Sometimes it's an "I see you can't get this over there, so have a look" (I sent him some loose diamonds for sharpening, green CrIII, a harsh looking 6/8 razor, and a DMT duo - all at different times) and other times it's an "i told you this is better than that for X, so here it is try for yourself".

Regardless of that, 90% of what I get from stu, is bought outright. I consider him one of the few woodworking retailers where I'd trust at his word that when he says something (TFWW being another one), it's because he's actually used what he's talking about, or he's talked directly to the smith or company owner, and not a distributor.

I understand what you mean about banging up the edge on a razor (on the 1k), but I think the effect will be different than it would be if you had a couple of loose grits on a finish stone and found that out by dinging up the edge - it'll be more of a deep cutting thing going on. If you can get a good look at the edge under magnification, I would almost wonder if the issue was more that the stone can cut deep and fast because you always have fresh abrasives (like the example on his page of stone tests where he shows a strongly abraded edge vs. one where the abrasive is wheezing a little and does a bit of polishing of an edge when you're intending to cut).

The fresh abrasive 10k will take care of the 1k edge regardless of what it does, I'd bet.

At the time that I got my SPII 3k from stu, I also purchased a chosera 3k so I could figure out what I liked better (keeping in mind I got these for japanese planes and chisels). On high carbon steel, they both cut about equivalent speed (the chosera is hard as a brick), but on some of my alloyed super hard chisels, the SPII leaves the chosera behind by a considerable margin (which is important with tools because of how fast the edge gets trashed).

For razors, once they are to the shave level, mine never see anything more coarse than something like a japanese razor hone or the finest synthetic hone I can find (which now in my case is the 13k SP ceramic).