Thread: Chinese 12K

I have a Chinese 12k hone, slate I think, Is it okay to lap this with my Norton flattening stone (250) or should I be moving up in grits, say with wet/dry sand paper? I'm noticing scratches in the stone. I'm also hitting dead spots, smooth, then grabs (slowing my stroke) then smooth again. I drew a grid pattern and lapped until it was gone.
this doesn't happen on one particular straight either. The hone has been soaked and is wet in use.

Another question:, is the 12k a good finisher. I bought this in hopes that it would take my edges a step further, and have had no notable difference in the feel of my shaves.

Next question:

I have a Spike razor, I committed to learning to set a bevel with. Using a 1k Norton I've done 20-40 circles on both sides followed by 20 X strokes heavy, and then the same progression only light. I have a bevel on either end with the center of the blade micro chipping, and I don't understand why? Also I want to note that I'm doing a heel forward X stroke. Spine wear is uneven, but I managed to even that out for the most part. Should I just tape the spine? and start over. Rust isn't an issue either. 1k has been lapped. The bevel across the edge is uneven. I'd be guessing but I'm thinking it's the uneven spine wear, and maybe taping the spine is the answer. Hope this makes sense.....

The Chinese stones I have are pretty hard, I've not used the Norton lapping stone but I suspect it's not really made for dealing with hard natural stones like the Chinese stone. Wet/dry works a treat.

When you say the Chinese stone is making no notable difference, what stone are you using for comparison?

I'm using an 8k Norton, I'm looking for a smoother edge, I'm happy with the 8k I just keep hearing about these buttery smooth edges. And the 12k was what fit my budget at the time.
So are you saying to use wet/dry sand paper to flatten this...

"When you say the Chinese stone is making no notable difference, what stone are you using for comparison?"

The Chinese 12k stones [aka PHIG] can be a bit hit and miss. Mine is a pretty darn good finisher, but I kind of lucked out as others have been a bit critical of theirs. I don't think QC is too consistent with them, and who knows how many quarries they are coming out of.

That having been said... I did use my Norton lapping stone on mine, but decided to finish it on sandpaper laid on a marble tile for flatness. My PHIG is quite hard, so be ready to spend some time getting it flat and smooth. But once you have it, hopefully you'll have one of the good 'uns and it will serve you well.

Re the bevel on your spike, when you say that you did 'heavy' circles and strokes, where were your fingers? Is there a chance you were applying more pressure at the heel and toe?

If you upload some pics, we might have a better chance of coming up with a good diagnosis.

I have 2 PHIG's, they are great finishers on some of my razors.

They are hard; I lapped them first with a DMT 325 , under slow running watter, progressed up through 320, 600, 1500, 3M Wet/Dry under running water, wrapped around my DMT, I hold the PHIG in my left hand still, work the wrapped DMT with my right.

They are hard, slow finishers.
I had this discussion with eleblu05 (Craig) on 1-26-2012, about the performance of the PHIG, he taught me how to work my PHIG.

Off an Norton 8000 we needed 150 to 200 strokes, I improved to a comfortable shave at 160 strokes (I lap off the metal transfer every 20 laps, for the best performance out of my stone's grit)

Off my Shapton 16000 we needed 75 to 100 strokes; I did 100, yes , it did improve the edge obtained on the 16000.

One thing is also a fact for me, not all my razors showed an improvement with the PHIG, after a Shapton 16000. My Sheffield wedges seem to favor my PHIG. I have other razor grinds, steels that loose their edge after the 16000, if I go to the PHIG; then I have to go back to the 16000 to get my comfortable shave back.

This is just my experience with PHIG's. I like my PHIG's, but my Shapton 16000 rules over the PHIG in 90% of the finishes.

Yep, speaking in general terms, the 12k is a good finisher. But like all the other stones, it has to be properly prepared. Lap it with WD paper and a DMT plate backing, as previously mentioned.

If you're talking Union Cutlery Spike with a near wedge grind, this is NOT the razor I would choose as my first razor to set a bevel on. How about picking a nice full hollow ground blade. They talk to you more, and don't take nearly as long to get right. Keep in mind, the reason the razor was probably retired to begin with is because it's previous owner could no longer establish a bevel on it. This means it probably needs some "resto" type work prior to "bevel setting" work.

Even if you tape the spine, whatever previous wear is evident, will be transferred to the cutting edge in mirror. For a near wedge, I would use tape definitely. Your descriptions make me think you're doing a lot of looking, and not a lot of feeling. The bevel isn't made with your eyes. Is it cutting arm hair anywhere along the length of the blade? Does it grab a wet thumbnail at any point along the length of the edge? These are surefire indicators of a bevel slowly coming into form.

Stop using pressure. If you're just learning, then you don't have a good idea what the term means. I know that sounds harsh. But it's the truth of it. Do your best NOT to use pressure at all. I know that sounds impossible. The first time I read it, I rolled my eyes, and said "yeah right, whatever". 6 months later I succeeded in setting a bevel. Patience is the only P word you should be focusing on right now. Try to imagine your moving the blade above the stone in such a way that the edge and spine are always in contact with the stone, but no pressure is being applied at any point in the stroke.

Best of luck, and hope I didn't come off assenine.

I like my PHIG but I agree with Hirlau; some razors don't do well on it. PHIG's can definitely have inconsistencies which cause some to be better than others.

I think I remember gssixgun talking about how he had to try 4 of them before he found a good one...

Proinsias - I'll try the wet/dry sandpaper, I have 325/400/1500 hopefully that will clear up the scratches.

Cangooner - I believe I used one hand, I do use two hands just to keep me steady with little or no pressure at times, I did apply a lot of pressure trying to perseude thing's due to hone wear. I'll post pics asap....

Hirlau - thanks for all the info. , I may go for a shapton, or just be happy with my 8k finish

regularjoe - yes the spike was not a good choice. I must not have an idea of what defines restoration work, I gather it's beyond a new bevel. I have another blade that has a hollow grind, I can work on. I've always sharpened my own blades, so that's not new, it's setting a bevel, that I've never done. So no pressure to set a bevel, using a 1k? got it! will try that too.

Check out this thread for lots of info on c-12 phig stone : http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...nat-athon.html

As others have said, they can be hit or miss, I've had three, one super that I'll always keep, one average and one that was marginal that I sold on ebay. The really good one is very dark and has an absolute mirror finish, it's much glassier looking than the other two. Mine takes 125 laps to improve a 8k edge with water and no pressure.