Thread: Just got a JNat today - any feedback or info?

Originally Posted by Lemur

Tell us then....

He just did, most counterfeited stone is Nakayama, because they sell for the most money.
Almost any stone you see sold in Japan online is claimed Nakayama, no stamps no nothing.

Truth about Ozuko and Shobudani is they are more available, not hyped as Nakayama, so the prices are much lower.
They are cheaper because the hype machine has not cough up with them. Ozuko especially produces harder stones that are very good for razor. Nakayama produces softer stones that are more for tools and knives, rarely you will find real hard Nakayama, I mean as hard as some Ozuko.

Currently the trend is Nakayama prices are going up a lot, kiita especially, who knows why but it is a fact. From what I hear a good size and quality nakayama kiita is not less than $5k now in Japan, good that the Japanese do not value Asagi so much. Other mines that have big price increase are Okudo and Ohira, all this comes from huge demand by carpenters, and other craftsmen that sharpen tools on Jnats.

I knew there were false stamps out there, I just thought maybe he knew something specific about the Jnat trade and had some examples of "false" Jnats.

As far as Nakayama if you really think about it, any stone not having any stamp listed in the link below is technically false.

Æ’}ƒ‹ƒJÂ�Æ’Â�^Â�³–{ŽR‚ÌÂ�Ö¾Â�@‘à ¥Â�H“¹‹ïÂ�ê–å“X(PROSHOPHOKUTO)

Provenance is key.

Originally Posted by Bayamontate

As far as Nakayama if you really think about it, any stone not having any stamp listed in the link below is technically false.

ƒ}ƒ‹ƒJÂ�ƒÂ�^Â�³–{ŽR‚ÃŒÂ�Ö¾Â�@‘Ã¥Â�H“¹‹Ã¯Â�ê– Ã¥“X(PROSHOPHOKUTO)

Provenance is key.

Except for the vintage ones had different stamps, and different wholeseleers have different stamps too.

It's a jungle out there for sure!

Originally Posted by mainaman

Except for the vintage ones had different stamps, and different wholeseleers have different stamps too.

The vintage market has completely different considerations, provenance is not only key in that circumstance, it's paramount.

Originally Posted by Bayamontate

The vintage market has completely different considerations, provenance is not only key in that circumstance, it's paramount.

But in your previous post you said that any stone that does not have the stamps from your link, is not authentic or am I missing the meaning? Vintage Nakayamas are stamped with different stamps, before the raw stone stock was bought by Hatanaka, it was property of Kato which used different stamps, that for sure does not make them less Nakayama than the current stock.

That's not what I said but have no interest in jousting, plus I have 7 razors I need to get out by Monday. Have fun.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Except for the vintage ones had different stamps, and different wholeseleers have different stamps too.

Bayamonte
Your link is a useful one, and it does cover the current stamps used by Hatanaka company. Those are stamps that are currently copyrighted for the exclusive use of the owner Hatanaka-san and his company. Kato-san had his own stamps which he sold to Hatanaka and there are dozens of other copyrighted stamps associated to the Nakayama mine and the Hatanaka company that you have not seen or are not being used.

Remember that Kato owned the mineral rights to the site of the Nakayama mine, he did not actually own the land, just the mineral rights which he leased on a yearly basis from the owner who was most likely one of the local Buddhist sects who owned and still does own most if not all of the land around Mt.Atago. Ohira does not own his land, just the mineral rights and he told me that the Buddhist Chruch ownes his land and that he does not have a written lease, just an understanding that goes back 5 or 6 generations. None of the mines owned the actual land, it was all leased and in most cases with a gentleman’s agreement like what we call a handshake.

The ink stamps are different, these rights are owned and maintained just like a business name. This is not to say that someone cannot infringe on the name or change the stamps just enough to make then different enough to get their own copyright. In the old days all of the mines and wholesalers cooperated together for the betterment of the whole.

Kato-san was pretty much the only miner who marked his own stones, and this was only a small selection of stone and it was not Hype but instead Promotion, the other miners just sold their stone with no stamps. This changed in the 1950s and 60s but by that time 90% of the mines were closed so what we see now are mostly wholesalers stamps.

Kato-san was a miner, and Hatanaka-san was a wholesaler in Kyoto who bought stones from Kato. At some point they formed a partnership, I am not sure about the date but it should have been after WW2, and when Kato gave up the mineral rights he sold everything lock, stock & barrel including the copyrighted stamps to Hatanaka.

Kato sold stones to lots of wholesalers every day of the week for 50 years, so there are lots and lots of Nakayama stones owned by other companies, and they can sell them as Nakayama mined stones if they want to, it is not against the law to claim them as such, it is just that they cannot stamp them the same as Hatanaka and Kato did or with other copyrighted images. I can take you into almost any stone store in Kyoto or Tokyo and pick out unmarked Nakayama stones off the shelf and the store owners sometimes themselves do not even know it, and those stones will be stamped with some generic wholesales stamp reading Yamashiro or Naurtaki or Hon Yama.

You can bet you boots that 330Mate, Tanaka, Kimura, Imanshi and others all own old Nakayama stock, and they know it and cherish it. I was in Hitomi's shop in Yagi out in the valley, he has a whole stack of Nakayama, so does Ohirs mines' Ishihara. They will gladly sell them to you as unmarked Nakayama stones for a big mark-up.

About all of these Ozuko & Shobudani stamped stones. Those mines closed about a hundred years ago, those miners never even thought of stamping their stones, they only sold them by the 100 kilo to the wholesalers. There never were copyrighted stamps for Ozuko or Shobudani when the mines were open so all these stones you guys are buying are just newly slabbed up rock from storage and stamped with newly make up stamps. Notice that they are all fresh ink. The stone is millions of years old just like the other mines but the product is fresh. No one owns the Ozuko mine and this is why the stamps are being used.

The kiita stone that Stefan mentioned at $5,000 is not a new thing in Japan. But I can assure you that there are no Ohira kiita at that price, or Ozaki kiita or Ozuko kiita or Shobudani kiita at that price. Why?
First lets assume that the miners and wholesalers and the collectors and the carpenters who can build a house using only joints and were born and raised in Japan and can speak Japanese, might know a little bit more about stones then us here in the U.S.. Why? The reason is because by the experts the Nakayama stones have alwasy been regarded to be superior to the other mines. It is no mystery that some mine has to have better stones, and the experts in Japan have recognized that for hundreds of years. Just like Ferreri's are faster than Fords. Sure there are a handful of Fords that can compete but as a whole the Nakayama stones have always been better and it is just a fact of geology and geography.

Back to the stamps. Hatanaka-san is trying to maintain his copyrights, but there are no owners of Shobudani or Ozaki or copyrights to defend, so there will be some stones that are stamped Ozuko that are not really Ozuko stones. They could just as easily be stamped Tommy's stone. Ozuku is not a mine or a place now, just a name of a memory. Any plain gray stone on all 6 sides is just that, a plain gray stone. If that stone has some kawa skin on one side or the back it can be traced to a particular mine with some accuracy. Ozuko is trendy now and ripe for false statements or stamps, but if it is just a hard gray stone its no big deal at $150-$500 a pop. When a stone goes over $1000 it should have some kawa to deciphor or of a particular strata that is easily recognizable like the strikingly lovely renge from Ohira, the diagonal grain of Mizukihara or the before mentioned kiita of Nakayama.

Rarity is important in Japan but in the trades quality is king, every mine in the Atago area has kiita and renge layers, but some mines stand out above all others for particular strata. I can assure you that Nakayama has level 5+++ stones, it is just that in Japan those 5+++ stones are not well thought of, too hard-too scratchy-too slow. With a diamond nagura they can be used, or with Aichi nagura they make a great platform to sharpen with your expensive nagura grit but the stones provide very little action with just clear water. All the mines in Japan produced very hard gray stones and most of it has never been sold and now are in storage or were crushed into abrasive powder for polishing lenses and such.


Alx

Here are 2 pages from a much larger publication of the registered ink stamps of the Kyoto Stone Union. One page out of 3 of the Hatanaka (not Kato) and a page out of 3 for Tanaka. See, these are all wholesalers stamps.