Thread: Trying to clarify my understanding

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I agree that all coticules are suitable for honing - it's just that I don't agree that they are all suitable for final honing of a razor. Ignoring the fact that most coticule devotees extoll the smooth edge, even they break it down into 'brisk', 'engaging' and 'mellow' and some are just too soft for even mellow. The really soft, auto-slurrying ones are ideal for a bit of heavier work, but rubbish for finishing the razor on. I find (and its only my opinion) that the harder ones are suitable for finishing but no good for any degree of heavy work - just my opinion of course, but based on having had very many (and still having some) coticules.

+1 in my experience which has been with many coticules.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

These things are all fashion. Pure and simple. It is related to who has stocks of what available to sell, and who shouts the loudest on forums about what is "best". I've seen a lot of "experts" with irons in the fire over the years. People don't seem to care about vested interest: that's fine it is your money.

What has this got to do with coticules you might ask? I dunno, I just wanted to rant a bit! No, coticules are no more immune to the commercial aspect as anything else. A mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles has been hawked around regarding coticules and like all mythology has built up a faithful flock. Same with Jnats, and Eschers before that. .

+1 on this too IME. Goes for razor brands as much, or more than stones. Not that I don't like some coticules but the legend is just that. IMHO.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

To coticule enthusiasts: Please just leave me out of your nonsense. I don't need anybody grading my helpfulness. The most helpful thing I can do for the OP is suggest synthetics first. This is advice borne of experience far beyond a handful of coticules. Although it does stand to reason that if someone spent four years using a coticule, he'd probably have a pretty good handle on it.

The reason I drew you into this was not so much because I was irritated or took offence by your particular post. It just strikes me that often when someone comes in here asking questions about naturals - often coticules, as they are popular - a standard reply seems to be: "don't bother just yet, buy a Norton 4k/8k, then perhaps a cheap PHIG and a 1k bevel setter." Honing on a coticule is not that insanely difficult, I don't understand why it seems that people need to be almost warned against them, mainly because of their fickleness.

Maybe my response was a bit too directly aimed at you, of course your advice may be useful and is probably genuine (inasfar as I can judge because I don't know you). And I have nothing per se against advising synthetics. It just seems that some people have problems with people advising coticules. Which I didn't do, but still. The OP asked a whole bunch of questions, mainly concerning coticules and your advice came across as, shall I say, overly concise, whith no explanation whatsoever. I think you can say that the self-evident nature of your answer bothered me.

As I said, I have honed on coticules for two years but got decent shaving results within the first month, as decent as can be expected of someone who started honing two months after he started shaving.

As a final note, I admit that me honing from start to finish with one natural hone (okay, and a bevel setter) is borne from a sort of romanticism, yes. So is me shaving with a straight razor. For me, that is one important reason I got into this, the other main reason being that I didn't get good shaves before. Personally, I don't need to get identical, predictable results every time. If I would have got great, consistent results from the get go it would have felt like cheating - I probably would have felt like I was only pretending to be old-school with 21st century equipment. Now that might make me weird, but that is why I consciously did not start on synthetics. Honing is part of my straight shaving experience that I enjoy as much as shaving itself. I hone for pleasure, not just to get a good edge.

If people feel more comfortable with the apparent consistent, predictable results synthetics provide, I say power to them (honestly, without any sarcasm). If honing razors is part of your job and you hone a lot, I understand the need for consistent and predictable, because you can't shave with every razor you hone. I just don't understand some of the apparent hostility against using a piece of rock that has played a considerable role in the straight shaving tradition and being entusiastic about it in a, I admit, geeky way. But then again, many aspects of this hobby are geeky, without it there would be hardly any straight razor community left.

Jimbo, you make it sound like I'm in a weird cult. I don't think people who love Eschers are fanatics, or people who love honing on Japanese naturals. That "flock" of that "mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles" also consists out of many people who couldn't care less about how insanely awesome garnets magically eat away steel like a crystalized version of Pac-man, but for whom it just simply works. Just like people for whom doing a honing pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k just works, who don't care why it works.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Snip...
The reason It just strikes me that often when someone comes in here asking questions about naturals - often coticules, as they are popular - a standard reply seems to be: "don't bother just yet, buy a Norton 4k/8k, then perhaps a cheap PHIG and a 1k bevel setter." Honing on a coticule is not that insanely difficult, I don't understand why it seems that people need to be almost warned against them, mainly because of their fickleness.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

It seems the Coticulists always gets their pants in a knot whenever their beloved rock is spoken of in less than panegyrical terms.
What you see as a warning, I see as sound advice to help someone get the desired results, a shave ready edge.

A coticule can be a wonderful honing tool, but there are tons of equally good alternatives out there.
Some of those alternatives are also cheaper, more consistent and fully capable of reaching at least the level of finish a Coticule does.

The "romantic", or "cool-dude" factor aside, once learned, a coticule can be a good hone. No more, no less.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Snip...

If people feel more comfortable with the apparent consistent, predictable results synthetics provide, I say power to them (honestly, without any sarcasm). If honing razors is part of your job and you hone a lot, I understand the need for consistent and predictable, because you can't shave with every razor you hone. I just don't understand some of the apparent hostility against using a piece of rock that has played a considerable role in the straight shaving tradition and being entusiastic about it in a, I admit, geeky way. But then again, many aspects of this hobby are geeky, without it there would be hardly any straight razor community left.

I'm not avare of any hostility towards the coticule, nor the use of it, on SRP.
What I see is a lot of experienced honers giving their honest opinion about that and other honing systems.
It is hard to see that advice as anything but a desire to help out. To me that is.
The thing is, to many of us, the Coticule is but a rock.
I personally honed 3 razors on a La Dressante au bleu last night, and one of them provided me with a fully acceptable shave this morning.
The same can be said of all the various other hones and honing systems I have and use.
The Coticule is not MY first choice in any of the stages in honing a razor, but I do like the few I have!

Originally Posted by Pithor

Jimbo, you make it sound like I'm in a weird cult. I don't think people who love Eschers are fanatics, or people who love honing on Japanese naturals. That "flock" of that "mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles" also consists out of many people who couldn't care less about how insanely awesome garnets magically eat away steel like a crystalized version of Pac-man, but for whom it just simply works. Just like people for whom doing a honing pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k just works, who don't care why it works.

Well, I guess to some extent we all belong to a weird cult.
After all, we spend lots of time on an internet forum talking about shaving for crying out loud.

Some of the more pronounced Coticulists does appear to be smitten more than most though

To stray a bit from the details of this thread (which I have enjoyed and learned something from as per usual), I have seen the blue bar with MENTOR under names and not given it too much thought. But this post by AFDavis11 really defined MENTOR for me today. So a sincere thank-you to the League of Mentor Men, the Big Brothers of Whiskers who freely share knowledge, who can disagree and remain civil, and who care enough both of preserving the history and expanding the knowledge base of this simple (I don't really mean simple) pleasure.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It's not too early to start thinking about it. Learning to hone is a good way to speed up your learning curve in other areas. It kind of gives you the freedom to experiment with stropping and shaving.

I would consider a coticule an intermediate to advanced stone. It's fine, just be really patient. I would ask these same experts and maybe Glen (gssixgun) to recommend an easy stone to learn on and tell them you are looking for maintenance not eBay restoration. You might need an easy stone before the coticule. Honing isn't really about stone selection, it's really about the learning curve, like sharpness testing, disciplined stroke, and progression decisions.

I advocate a norton 4/8 for learning to hone, for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is a known quantity. Every one of them will be the same as the one next to it. With coticules there is a lot of variation. They are all over the spectrum in terms of 'grit', speed, and hardness. This can make it harder to learn to use it properly. And in the past, you could argue that coticules were cheaper. But that is way in the past. A mid sized coticule is already as expensive as a much bigger norton.

Originally Posted by Pithor

...
Jimbo, you make it sound like I'm in a weird cult. I don't think people who love Eschers are fanatics, or people who love honing on Japanese naturals. That "flock" of that "mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles" also consists out of many people who couldn't care less about how insanely awesome garnets magically eat away steel like a crystalized version of Pac-man, but for whom it just simply works. Just like people for whom doing a honing pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k just works, who don't care why it works.

I have no issue with anyone being into and/or doing whatever it is they are into - as Birnando said, from a certain point of view all of us here could be considered "fanatics" in one form or another.

My comment was directed more toward the person considering a coticule as a purchase. Sometimes understanding the history of a thing can enable you to put it into a more rational context. And in this case, there is a quite recent history that tracks quite closely with coticule pricing and the apparent "rediscovery" of Jnat-esque layers within the mine. Yes, yes, I know these layers have been "known" for years, but it appears a pricing strategy based upon them is a more recent phenomenon...

In any event, I like my coticules. Within their limits, they work for me and when I am in the mood I use them and enjoy them - just like every other stone I have. And that is why in my first response to the OP I suggested that it wouldn't be a bad thing to get a coticule, although I do agree with others that there may be a gentler learning curve if they took a synthetic or even pasted strop route.

James.

Originally Posted by Pithor

If people feel more comfortable with the apparent consistent, predictable results synthetics provide, I say power to them (honestly, without any sarcasm). If honing razors is part of your job and you hone a lot, I understand the need for consistent and predictable, because you can't shave with every razor you hone..

Wrong Answer...

Just to be very clear, I probably honed more razors in the last month using a Coticule then you ever have, but it was just one of many stones/hones I used on razors...
And every single one was test shaved regardless of the system used

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I think I have a much clearer idea of how everything fits together.

One final thing - I know a 10/12k is for finishing and a 1/3k is for bevel setting. Where do the 4 -8 range stones fit in in terms of either maintaining a razor or honing a ebay purchase or something in between?

Originally Posted by phunni

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I think I have a much clearer idea of how everything fits together.

One final thing - I know a 10/12k is for finishing and a 1/3k is for bevel setting. Where do the 4 -8 range stones fit in in terms of either maintaining a razor or honing a ebay purchase or something in between?

1k bevel setting
4k sharpening
8k and above finishing

Approximately. For instance a chipped up ebay special may require an even lower grit. My honing mentors had me working with the 4/8 for sharpening and instructed to stay at 8k until I was getting stellar shaves at that level before moving up the grit ladder. That is if you really want to learn to hone from bevel set to finishing. Just doing touch ups on shave ready razors that are in need of a touch up may be a different skill set ?

There are basically 4 stages of honing

Bevel
Sharpen
Polish
Finish

The 3k-6k (Middle Range) is considered Sharpening with SR's, don't get too hung on grit ratings they can be rather decieving as just for instance a Coticule which now in this thread has become very contentious, is actually considered to be 8k Yet many of us consider them as a finisher