Thread: Trying to clarify my understanding

Do the naniwas need lapping out of the box, and if so, presumably I would also need a lapping stone of some sort?

Originally Posted by regularjoe

Yep. Many of the senior guys will tell you to start with a Naniwa 12k or a barber hone as your first stone.

But he specifically asked about coticules, I would guess in order to be able to make a balanced decision how to use a coticule he is most likely going to buy sometime in the future. Telling him that many experienced honers on this forum would advise this or that does not really give him very much information about what he asked.

Originally Posted by phunni

I'm actually thinking way ahead of myself here since I'm still very much a newbie and not yet ready for honing.

There's nothing wrong about thinking ahead. Although starting honing and shaving at the same time is more challenging than first learning how to shave, then how to hone. But a good challenge can't hurt, right? Just make sure you don't practice on the razors you shave with.

Originally Posted by phunni

One of the things I'm confused about is the coticule. Some people talk as if this is only good for finishing/polishing - is that correct? What about with a slurry? Would a coticule, moving from slurry to water via a medium slurry stage, get the job done, or would one still need a coarser stone and/or a finer finishing stone? Are coticule too variable between stones to be reliable?

Your logic is actually very much in the right direction. Most coticules (some would argue all; I don't want to go that far) are suitable for re-establishing a bevel (i.e. an edge without chips that has some sort of a bevel) and polishing, and everything in between. The sharpness (or keenness) the razor is left with after a full honing is not sharp enough for everyone, but there are many who swear by it. I personally shave with nothing else, so I'm biased. But I do so because for me, a well honed coticule edge has the right balance of sharp and smooth.

Indeed, as suggested, pay a visit to coticule.be. It contains lots of information about honing with a coticule. The so-called Unicot and Dilucot method both work pretty much according to what you call "slurry to water via a medium slurry stage" (although some recent findings by a number of people indicate that finishing on water may not even be absolutely necessary to reach a smooth and sharp coticule edge, but don't worry about that).

And no, coticules are not too variable to be reliable as hones. They do not all behave identically, but work according to the same principle and in theory, all coticules are suitable for honing razors - according to the only 'manufacturer' of coticules (note that people honing razors are only a tiny fraction of his clientele), Coticule-ardennes. I feel it's safe to say that most of the coticules available through vendors are suitable. But it takes time to learn honing on a coticule. If you want a fast solution, go synthetic. If you have plenty of time and are not in a hurry to be able to hone one awesome edge after the other, go natural.

Originally Posted by phunni

I had been thinking of getting a coticule at some point in the future (mostly inspired by Lynn's video on using them) and then, when I'm better at the whole honing thing, getter a coarser stone or two for use before the coticule. Am I mixed up or does that sound like a reasonable progression?

That sounds like an excellent progression, in fact one that most (or at least many) coticule users use, including me. For rougher bevel work and honing out chips in the edge, get a coarser hone. You CAN hone out small chips with a coticule (I have done so), but often will take unnecessarily long.

Personally after two years of honing pretty much exclusively on coticules, nine out of ten times I set a razor's bevel on my natural cretan hone, dull that on glass and then hone the razor to shave-ready in 15 minutes max. on one of my five coticules (yes, I have too many). That is, if I didn't mess up at the bevel stage, in which case I will either revisit the cretan or go back to the start of the slurry stage for bevel establishment.

The more recent version for you

Some thoughts on honing razors..
Aspiring honers are often not clear about what they are trying to accomplish when it comes to honing razors. In particular, they are often unsure of what they are doing and how often they should be doing it. Some questions you might want to answer for yourself before you start buying hones: this also means that if you are not sure of the answer here, you should shave more, and wait to buy hones until you can answer these questions.... I normally recommend 6 months of shaving before even thinking about honing

■ Are you an "end-user"; someone who only hones a previously shave-ready blade back to shave-ready?
■ Are you a hobbyist who is chasing the absolute finest edge that may be obtained where money is no object?
■ Are you a frugal shaver who is after the cheapest way to complete your morning shave?
■ Are you a collector who needs to take E-bay specials from butt-ugly to shave-ready?
■ Are you a Honemiester; someone who gets paid to do all of these things for others?
■ Are you a razor restorer who needs to take damaged blades and bring them back to life and shave-readiness?

Each of these types of honer profiles have different requirements for the stones they will own. Theoretically, you can survive using the "one stone" approach, but each razor does have an optimum stone set - and more importantly, a technique for using the required hones. So generally, when somebody asks what stone or how to use what stone, the question to ask them is: "What are you trying to accomplish with the stone(S)?"

Refreshing vs. Starting from Scratch:

The types of hones required depends first and foremost on the type of honing you want to do.

Hones needed for refreshing a dull blade:

If the only task you want to perform is refreshing edges that have previously been established by a Honemiester (the process is often referred to as "touching up"), you need only get a fine grit finishing stone or a barber's hone for this. Either of these hones can be used to keep your razor(s) shave-ready for years.

Hones needed for restoring razors:

If you want to set a bevel, or have many different types of razors, you will need a full set of hones.


A bevel setting stone approximately 1k

DMT's 325 600 1200, Shapton 500, 1K and 2K, Coticules with slurry, Norton 1k, Naniwa 1k, King 1k Chosera 1k

A sharpening stone approximately 4k

Norton 4K, Shapton 4K Naniwa 3k or 5k, Belgian Blue with slurry, Coticule with slurry, King 4k or 6k Tam o Shanter, Dragon's Tongue, Chosera 3k or 5k, Suehiro Cerax stones

A polishing stone approximately 8k

Norton 8k, Shapton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Suehiro 8k Yellow Coticule, Water of Ayre, Some of the Japanese Naturals

A finishing stone 10k and above (this is often subject to debate, however)

Shapton GS 16k-30k Shapton 15k Naniwa SS 10k-12k or Chosera 10k, Suehiro Gokumyo 10k-15k-20k, Thuringens, Escher's, Many different natural Japanese finishers, Charlney Forest, Extra Fine Coticule, Welsh Slates, Zulu Grey, even some of the Arkansas stones...

You have several choices of how to accomplish this setup whether you use natural, man-made stone, or a Diamond-style stone, even honing films, but you are going to have to be able to cover those 4 grit ranges. There really is no true shortcut here if you expect to take razors acquired in need of restoration from butter knife dull (or damaged) to shaving sharp: You are going to end up needing these types of stones.


Pastes can be used after the hones and before the final stropping also these can be used for re-freshing the edge before going back to the hones for a touch-up... Some shavers even use pastes to "sharpen" the razor after the bevel set has been done...

A few different types

Dovo Pastes:

Green 5-8 micron
Red 3-5 micron
Black 1-3 micron
Dovo pastes are a much more mild cutter then say a diamond paste of the same micron size...

Diamond Paste:

From 3 micron down to actually .10 micron if you really wanted to...
These pastes are fast and many people use them incorrectly and manage too get a harsh edge, when used correctly and on the right razor steel these will most likely be the sharpest edge you will ever feel...

Diamond sprays:

Mostly found in 1.0 .50 and .25 micron watch the Carat content here, the higher the better (SRD has the best I have found and yes Lynn and Don are friends of mine, but heck it is still the best spray I have found)

Chromium Oxide Paste/Powder .50 micron (CrOx)
Probably the most universal of the pastes, get the most pure you can find, and no the bars at Woodcrafters are not pure...

Cubic Boron Nitide CBN
Many different grits available known to polish the bevel and edge very well


Cerium Oxide Paste/Powder (approx).25 micron (CeOx)

Super fine, super soft, and super smooth, polishing media...The bar at Woodcrafter's is of unknown quality at this time

Other Pastes and Powders:

Iron Oxide
Aluminum Oxide

Both of these can also be used again be very careful when buying this stuff as the purity and the micron sizes are very important...

Carbon blacking/lamp black:

This might be the oldest of all the sharpening "pastes" when used on a leather strop it increases draw

Wood Ash:

Another old fashioned one very slightly abrasive when used on Linen strops and Leather strops..

White chalk:

Can be rubbed on a linen strop to increase the abrasive qualities

Newspaper:

The ink itself is a very fine abrasive and so is the paper..

Keep in mind that different razor steels like/dislike different pastes, and the different media that is used to apply it including Balsa, Linen, Leather (paddle) Leather (hanger) and Felt paddle and hanger all give different results on different razor steels....


The above are only my personal opinions and observations... There are no set rules in Razordom



Read these accounts of honing


http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html


The importance of the Bevel


http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...l-setting.html


There is no "Magical" hone near every Stone/Hone that you can shave off of can be used from bottom to top (BTW there are way more Vids than in that were in this thread available now)

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...lynn-glen.html




As you can see from the responses in this thread most everyone is going to give you the same response "This is my favorite stone so you should use it" by reading just a bit of what I have linked you, should show you exactly what AFDavis alluded too above, The Magic is in the hands not the stone, the more you hone the better you get, the better you get the more you hone

Thanks for all that! Plenty to watch/read up on. So, in the very short term, don't worry about it. In the short to medium term, if all I want to do is maintain an edge, then just a 10 to 12k type hone.

Honestly, for simply maintenance, you can chose almost any direction you want to go, most any of the Natural Finishers or any Synthetics at 8k or above will maintain a comfortable shaving edge for your lifetime..

Bang for the Buck I guess is what it comes down to for your choice being in the UK changes your choices too, those 3 stone sets of Welsh slates might be a very good option for you too since the shipping is next to nothing for you ...

Warning: Where that thinking gets sidelined is your first E-bay/Antique store purchase

As a beginner, I started with just a 12k stone. However, also as a beginner, I only have one straight razor, and managed more than once to chip the blade by knocking it into things (like the tap). I then bought a coticule. This worked ok, but I wish I had purchased synthetics, which I believe would have been easier to learn on.

I had an outburst written here. I'm deleting it, because it's a pointless argument.

If you buy Naniwas, you'll have to lap them flat.

if you buy coticules, good luck.

The specific questions you asked about have different answers depending on which coticule you are using. And that doesn't have anything to do with the layers, but with the specific stone you are holding in your hand at the time. Coticules are fine. Buy one if you want.

To coticule enthusiasts: Please just leave me out of your nonsense. I don't need anybody grading my helpfulness. The most helpful thing I can do for the OP is suggest synthetics first. This is advice borne of experience far beyond a handful of coticules. Although it does stand to reason that if someone spent four years using a coticule, he'd probably have a pretty good handle on it.

I don't need help with reading, and your reply to the OPs original post was fine, RegularJoe - he was thinking about what stones to get, and a coticule - 'in the future'.

In my opinion, and in most of those expressed above - learn on synthetics first. They are 'known quantities' and give regular, solid results. You will build-up a sound base from which you can then judge other hone stones in a fairly quick time. If you want to take a variable amount of time learning as well as the hazard of being put-off forever along the way, then by all means get a natural. Or two.

I agree that all coticules are suitable for honing - it's just that I don't agree that they are all suitable for final honing of a razor. Ignoring the fact that most coticule devotees extoll the smooth edge, even they break it down into 'brisk', 'engaging' and 'mellow' and some are just too soft for even mellow. The really soft, auto-slurrying ones are ideal for a bit of heavier work, but rubbish for finishing the razor on. I find (and its only my opinion) that the harder ones are suitable for finishing but no good for any degree of heavy work - just my opinion of course, but based on having had very many (and still having some) coticules.

The mythos of 'one stone honing' or coticule-devotion as I prefer to call it obviously has a strong appeal to those just starting to hone who want/need/have to be careful with their cash. It can be done, but in much the same way as using your expensive hand-made italian shoes for playing soccer in, running a marathon, mountain climbing, fly-fishing and lounging about the apartment in. Why would you want to do it?

Regards,
Neil
(sipping hot, sweet tea from his italian loafers - who needs cups?)

Personally I wouldn't equate a coticule to expensive hand-made Italian leather shoes, except maybe the "expensive" part, but it's a good point nonetheless

Back before the coticule fetishists came along a coticule was considered just another in the plethora of natural hones. It is slightly more versatile than some stones, on average. If you have the time, money, and patience (and good luck to get a decent stone, they naturally vary of course) there's nothing wrong with buying a coticule as your first stone.

I remember when an 8k edge was considered a good edge - hell, I shaved off 8k edges for about 2 years. And then came the Eschers. And then came the shapton pros. And then came the Jnats.

These things are all fashion. Pure and simple. It is related to who has stocks of what available to sell, and who shouts the loudest on forums about what is "best". I've seen a lot of "experts" with irons in the fire over the years. People don't seem to care about vested interest: that's fine it is your money.

What has this got to do with coticules you might ask? I dunno, I just wanted to rant a bit! No, coticules are no more immune to the commercial aspect than anything else. A mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles has been hawked around regarding coticules and like all mythology has built up a faithful flock. Same with Jnats, and Eschers before that. When money is involved, it's going to happen. I think you just need to realise that, try to see past the hyperbole if possible, and try things for yourself.

An expensive approach? Maybe, but you can always resell if they don't suit your needs.

Good luck.

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I remember when an 8k edge was considered a good edge - hell, I shaved off 8k edges for about 2 years.

James.

Scene: Four Yorkshire honers sitting in a Bar.

Who'd 'ave thought, all them years ago, we'd be sitting 'ere talking about 16k, 20k and 30k edges?
Aye, in them days we was all glad to have a good old 8k norton.
Aye, but we were happy in those days, though we were poor.
An 8k Norton?! You were lucky!
Aye, we used to dream of having an 8k Norton - all we could afford was a bit of Welsh slate.
Oh - we used to dream of having a bit of Welsh slate. All we could afford was a bit of brick.
House Brick?
Aye.
Luxury.
We had it tough. We had to hone our dad's razor on t'middle of road. And if it weren't sharp enough, woe betide us.
Aye, and you try telling young people of today that. And they won't believe you.
Aye, they won't.

Apologies to Monty Python.