Thread: Trying to clarify my understanding

Honestly, for simply maintenance, you can chose almost any direction you want to go, most any of the Natural Finishers or any Synthetics at 8k or above will maintain a comfortable shaving edge for your lifetime..

Bang for the Buck I guess is what it comes down to for your choice being in the UK changes your choices too, those 3 stone sets of Welsh slates might be a very good option for you too since the shipping is next to nothing for you ...

Warning: Where that thinking gets sidelined is your first E-bay/Antique store purchase

As a beginner, I started with just a 12k stone. However, also as a beginner, I only have one straight razor, and managed more than once to chip the blade by knocking it into things (like the tap). I then bought a coticule. This worked ok, but I wish I had purchased synthetics, which I believe would have been easier to learn on.

I had an outburst written here. I'm deleting it, because it's a pointless argument.

If you buy Naniwas, you'll have to lap them flat.

if you buy coticules, good luck.

The specific questions you asked about have different answers depending on which coticule you are using. And that doesn't have anything to do with the layers, but with the specific stone you are holding in your hand at the time. Coticules are fine. Buy one if you want.

To coticule enthusiasts: Please just leave me out of your nonsense. I don't need anybody grading my helpfulness. The most helpful thing I can do for the OP is suggest synthetics first. This is advice borne of experience far beyond a handful of coticules. Although it does stand to reason that if someone spent four years using a coticule, he'd probably have a pretty good handle on it.

I don't need help with reading, and your reply to the OPs original post was fine, RegularJoe - he was thinking about what stones to get, and a coticule - 'in the future'.

In my opinion, and in most of those expressed above - learn on synthetics first. They are 'known quantities' and give regular, solid results. You will build-up a sound base from which you can then judge other hone stones in a fairly quick time. If you want to take a variable amount of time learning as well as the hazard of being put-off forever along the way, then by all means get a natural. Or two.

I agree that all coticules are suitable for honing - it's just that I don't agree that they are all suitable for final honing of a razor. Ignoring the fact that most coticule devotees extoll the smooth edge, even they break it down into 'brisk', 'engaging' and 'mellow' and some are just too soft for even mellow. The really soft, auto-slurrying ones are ideal for a bit of heavier work, but rubbish for finishing the razor on. I find (and its only my opinion) that the harder ones are suitable for finishing but no good for any degree of heavy work - just my opinion of course, but based on having had very many (and still having some) coticules.

The mythos of 'one stone honing' or coticule-devotion as I prefer to call it obviously has a strong appeal to those just starting to hone who want/need/have to be careful with their cash. It can be done, but in much the same way as using your expensive hand-made italian shoes for playing soccer in, running a marathon, mountain climbing, fly-fishing and lounging about the apartment in. Why would you want to do it?

Regards,
Neil
(sipping hot, sweet tea from his italian loafers - who needs cups?)

Personally I wouldn't equate a coticule to expensive hand-made Italian leather shoes, except maybe the "expensive" part, but it's a good point nonetheless

Back before the coticule fetishists came along a coticule was considered just another in the plethora of natural hones. It is slightly more versatile than some stones, on average. If you have the time, money, and patience (and good luck to get a decent stone, they naturally vary of course) there's nothing wrong with buying a coticule as your first stone.

I remember when an 8k edge was considered a good edge - hell, I shaved off 8k edges for about 2 years. And then came the Eschers. And then came the shapton pros. And then came the Jnats.

These things are all fashion. Pure and simple. It is related to who has stocks of what available to sell, and who shouts the loudest on forums about what is "best". I've seen a lot of "experts" with irons in the fire over the years. People don't seem to care about vested interest: that's fine it is your money.

What has this got to do with coticules you might ask? I dunno, I just wanted to rant a bit! No, coticules are no more immune to the commercial aspect than anything else. A mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles has been hawked around regarding coticules and like all mythology has built up a faithful flock. Same with Jnats, and Eschers before that. When money is involved, it's going to happen. I think you just need to realise that, try to see past the hyperbole if possible, and try things for yourself.

An expensive approach? Maybe, but you can always resell if they don't suit your needs.

Good luck.

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I remember when an 8k edge was considered a good edge - hell, I shaved off 8k edges for about 2 years.

James.

Scene: Four Yorkshire honers sitting in a Bar.

Who'd 'ave thought, all them years ago, we'd be sitting 'ere talking about 16k, 20k and 30k edges?
Aye, in them days we was all glad to have a good old 8k norton.
Aye, but we were happy in those days, though we were poor.
An 8k Norton?! You were lucky!
Aye, we used to dream of having an 8k Norton - all we could afford was a bit of Welsh slate.
Oh - we used to dream of having a bit of Welsh slate. All we could afford was a bit of brick.
House Brick?
Aye.
Luxury.
We had it tough. We had to hone our dad's razor on t'middle of road. And if it weren't sharp enough, woe betide us.
Aye, and you try telling young people of today that. And they won't believe you.
Aye, they won't.

Apologies to Monty Python.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I agree that all coticules are suitable for honing - it's just that I don't agree that they are all suitable for final honing of a razor. Ignoring the fact that most coticule devotees extoll the smooth edge, even they break it down into 'brisk', 'engaging' and 'mellow' and some are just too soft for even mellow. The really soft, auto-slurrying ones are ideal for a bit of heavier work, but rubbish for finishing the razor on. I find (and its only my opinion) that the harder ones are suitable for finishing but no good for any degree of heavy work - just my opinion of course, but based on having had very many (and still having some) coticules.

+1 in my experience which has been with many coticules.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

These things are all fashion. Pure and simple. It is related to who has stocks of what available to sell, and who shouts the loudest on forums about what is "best". I've seen a lot of "experts" with irons in the fire over the years. People don't seem to care about vested interest: that's fine it is your money.

What has this got to do with coticules you might ask? I dunno, I just wanted to rant a bit! No, coticules are no more immune to the commercial aspect as anything else. A mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles has been hawked around regarding coticules and like all mythology has built up a faithful flock. Same with Jnats, and Eschers before that. .

+1 on this too IME. Goes for razor brands as much, or more than stones. Not that I don't like some coticules but the legend is just that. IMHO.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

To coticule enthusiasts: Please just leave me out of your nonsense. I don't need anybody grading my helpfulness. The most helpful thing I can do for the OP is suggest synthetics first. This is advice borne of experience far beyond a handful of coticules. Although it does stand to reason that if someone spent four years using a coticule, he'd probably have a pretty good handle on it.

The reason I drew you into this was not so much because I was irritated or took offence by your particular post. It just strikes me that often when someone comes in here asking questions about naturals - often coticules, as they are popular - a standard reply seems to be: "don't bother just yet, buy a Norton 4k/8k, then perhaps a cheap PHIG and a 1k bevel setter." Honing on a coticule is not that insanely difficult, I don't understand why it seems that people need to be almost warned against them, mainly because of their fickleness.

Maybe my response was a bit too directly aimed at you, of course your advice may be useful and is probably genuine (inasfar as I can judge because I don't know you). And I have nothing per se against advising synthetics. It just seems that some people have problems with people advising coticules. Which I didn't do, but still. The OP asked a whole bunch of questions, mainly concerning coticules and your advice came across as, shall I say, overly concise, whith no explanation whatsoever. I think you can say that the self-evident nature of your answer bothered me.

As I said, I have honed on coticules for two years but got decent shaving results within the first month, as decent as can be expected of someone who started honing two months after he started shaving.

As a final note, I admit that me honing from start to finish with one natural hone (okay, and a bevel setter) is borne from a sort of romanticism, yes. So is me shaving with a straight razor. For me, that is one important reason I got into this, the other main reason being that I didn't get good shaves before. Personally, I don't need to get identical, predictable results every time. If I would have got great, consistent results from the get go it would have felt like cheating - I probably would have felt like I was only pretending to be old-school with 21st century equipment. Now that might make me weird, but that is why I consciously did not start on synthetics. Honing is part of my straight shaving experience that I enjoy as much as shaving itself. I hone for pleasure, not just to get a good edge.

If people feel more comfortable with the apparent consistent, predictable results synthetics provide, I say power to them (honestly, without any sarcasm). If honing razors is part of your job and you hone a lot, I understand the need for consistent and predictable, because you can't shave with every razor you hone. I just don't understand some of the apparent hostility against using a piece of rock that has played a considerable role in the straight shaving tradition and being entusiastic about it in a, I admit, geeky way. But then again, many aspects of this hobby are geeky, without it there would be hardly any straight razor community left.

Jimbo, you make it sound like I'm in a weird cult. I don't think people who love Eschers are fanatics, or people who love honing on Japanese naturals. That "flock" of that "mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles" also consists out of many people who couldn't care less about how insanely awesome garnets magically eat away steel like a crystalized version of Pac-man, but for whom it just simply works. Just like people for whom doing a honing pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k just works, who don't care why it works.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Snip...
The reason It just strikes me that often when someone comes in here asking questions about naturals - often coticules, as they are popular - a standard reply seems to be: "don't bother just yet, buy a Norton 4k/8k, then perhaps a cheap PHIG and a 1k bevel setter." Honing on a coticule is not that insanely difficult, I don't understand why it seems that people need to be almost warned against them, mainly because of their fickleness.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

It seems the Coticulists always gets their pants in a knot whenever their beloved rock is spoken of in less than panegyrical terms.
What you see as a warning, I see as sound advice to help someone get the desired results, a shave ready edge.

A coticule can be a wonderful honing tool, but there are tons of equally good alternatives out there.
Some of those alternatives are also cheaper, more consistent and fully capable of reaching at least the level of finish a Coticule does.

The "romantic", or "cool-dude" factor aside, once learned, a coticule can be a good hone. No more, no less.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Snip...

If people feel more comfortable with the apparent consistent, predictable results synthetics provide, I say power to them (honestly, without any sarcasm). If honing razors is part of your job and you hone a lot, I understand the need for consistent and predictable, because you can't shave with every razor you hone. I just don't understand some of the apparent hostility against using a piece of rock that has played a considerable role in the straight shaving tradition and being entusiastic about it in a, I admit, geeky way. But then again, many aspects of this hobby are geeky, without it there would be hardly any straight razor community left.

I'm not avare of any hostility towards the coticule, nor the use of it, on SRP.
What I see is a lot of experienced honers giving their honest opinion about that and other honing systems.
It is hard to see that advice as anything but a desire to help out. To me that is.
The thing is, to many of us, the Coticule is but a rock.
I personally honed 3 razors on a La Dressante au bleu last night, and one of them provided me with a fully acceptable shave this morning.
The same can be said of all the various other hones and honing systems I have and use.
The Coticule is not MY first choice in any of the stages in honing a razor, but I do like the few I have!

Originally Posted by Pithor

Jimbo, you make it sound like I'm in a weird cult. I don't think people who love Eschers are fanatics, or people who love honing on Japanese naturals. That "flock" of that "mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles" also consists out of many people who couldn't care less about how insanely awesome garnets magically eat away steel like a crystalized version of Pac-man, but for whom it just simply works. Just like people for whom doing a honing pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k just works, who don't care why it works.

Well, I guess to some extent we all belong to a weird cult.
After all, we spend lots of time on an internet forum talking about shaving for crying out loud.

Some of the more pronounced Coticulists does appear to be smitten more than most though

Originally Posted by Pithor

...
Jimbo, you make it sound like I'm in a weird cult. I don't think people who love Eschers are fanatics, or people who love honing on Japanese naturals. That "flock" of that "mythology built upon pseudo-scientific principles" also consists out of many people who couldn't care less about how insanely awesome garnets magically eat away steel like a crystalized version of Pac-man, but for whom it just simply works. Just like people for whom doing a honing pyramid on a Norton 4k/8k just works, who don't care why it works.

I have no issue with anyone being into and/or doing whatever it is they are into - as Birnando said, from a certain point of view all of us here could be considered "fanatics" in one form or another.

My comment was directed more toward the person considering a coticule as a purchase. Sometimes understanding the history of a thing can enable you to put it into a more rational context. And in this case, there is a quite recent history that tracks quite closely with coticule pricing and the apparent "rediscovery" of Jnat-esque layers within the mine. Yes, yes, I know these layers have been "known" for years, but it appears a pricing strategy based upon them is a more recent phenomenon...

In any event, I like my coticules. Within their limits, they work for me and when I am in the mood I use them and enjoy them - just like every other stone I have. And that is why in my first response to the OP I suggested that it wouldn't be a bad thing to get a coticule, although I do agree with others that there may be a gentler learning curve if they took a synthetic or even pasted strop route.

James.