Thread: What are the Indicators for you it's time to move up in the progression?

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am going to give you the "Three Great Secrets of Honing"

We tell this to White Belt Kempo Students when they attain their 1st Yellow Belt too "The Three Great Secrets of Martial Arts"

Practice..

More Practice..

Practice it one more time...


http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-1k-shave.html


Now in reality read that thread above, and try it, then once you get that move to you next stone and do it once again and the next and the next... Once you learn to adjust your honing so that every step yields an noticeable improvement then it all becomes really easy...

This like everything else in this hobby takes time and repetition it is boring and most people stop at "Good Enough" but all you have to do is invest the time and it all makes sense

Thanks Glen....good stuff there albeit this would make honing a razor a multi day event for me...as a military guy, I don't have the time in the morning to hone - shave - hone - shave etc...but I see serious advantages to doing this on the weekends!

When testing the bevel off the 1K I make sure the blade can shave arm hair at the tip, middle and heal of the blade. After that I go by feel - when the blade has that "sticky" or "sucking" feel I move on - works for me...

-john

Originally Posted by ocelot27

When testing the bevel off the 1K I make sure the blade can shave arm hair at the tip, middle and heal of the blade. After that I go by feel - when the blade has that "sticky" or "sucking" feel I move on - works for me...

-john

Thanks for this...just used this during tonight's honing of my Bergischer Lowe

I now go by feel. Sometimes I get it wrong and need to go back but all of this is told very clearly to me by a shave test if I'm unsure. Arm hair, hanging hair type of tests, and magnification don't really help me too much or tell me what I need to know. (edit; except for bevel setting) For those that can consistently rely on these easy tests on mid level stones I'm a bit jealous.

Before I was able to tell by feel I relied on the pyramid method. It's perfect for the guys that are still unsure when to move to the next stone.

i myself make sure the bevel is absolutely set as far as i can, so the 1k edge should shave leghair and armhair easily with little resistence.
after the bevel i do the same tests and if its improved i can choose to move on or get the most out of the curent stone.

I always try and finish with an edge that silently cuts leghair without a sound. those edges will wipe a beard away

If your bevels done right, it gives the edge 80-90% of the keenness, after that the 4k and 8k hones only serve to reduce the strokes needed on a finisher, so the level of improvement on the edge from the 4/8k hones when used as a sign of progressing is different for everybody which is why i think most veterans will use the feel of the edge as an indicator to progress but still have a test to make sure e.g leg/armhair test, TPT, etc

regards
alex

Originally Posted by justalex

i myself make sure the bevel is absolutely set as far as i can, so the 1k edge should shave leghair and armhair easily with little resistence.
after the bevel i do the same tests and if its improved i can choose to move on or get the most out of the curent stone.

I always try and finish with an edge that silently cuts leghair without a sound. those edges will wipe a beard away

If your bevels done right, it gives the edge 80-90% of the keenness, after that the 4k and 8k hones only serve to reduce the strokes needed on a finisher, so the level of improvement on the edge from the 4/8k hones when used as a sign of progressing is different for everybody which is why i think most veterans will use the feel of the edge as an indicator to progress but still have a test to make sure e.g leg/armhair test, TPT, etc

regards
alex

Interesting....as a newb honer this is essentially what I did on the Bergischer...honed on the 1k until it effortlessly cut leg hair. Then moved up. The progression off the 4k/8k was a little more nebulous....but I got a nice smooth shave able edge so I must have done something right! Now to repeat!!

Hard for me to feel the suction at the 1k or 12 micron stage. What I do is to do half laps or circle laps until I get a burr, then do the same number on the other side and check for a burr. If I go over 50 to get the initial burr then I break it up into groups of 50. When I have felt the burr on both sides I do regular laps to hone the burr off. Then I strop on the Big Daddy felt, and do 40 very very light laps. The edge ALWAYS shaves arm hair effortlessly after that.

All other stages, I use regular laps until I feel the stone or film sucking the blade down into it. Never fails. After I feel the suction, I do 30 extremely light laps and move on to the next stage.

Without a good bevel, you won't get suction at the finer stages. If you go and go and don't get suction, probably you don't have a good flat bevel.

At every stage, I lighten up the pressure at the end until the razor is barely staying in contact. Seems to help a lot when I do that.

At my finish, I can't use the suction clue because I get suction from the very first lap. I finish on .3 micron film over damp paper and here, I just count off 40 laps with decreasing pressure. Then I strop and do a quick test shave, and if it feels harsh then I hit the film over paper again but I don't reduce so much on the pressure. A slight pressure takes advantage of the flex of the film and the cushion of the damp paper to convex the edge slightly, and the edge will still be sharp but no longer harsh. Usually though it isn't harsh in the first place with the paper.

All said and done, 50 of the lightest laps on .1 micron diamond on balsa.

So during most of the journey, the suction is my main cue. At the bevel, I look for the burr and then hone it off. At the finish, it is already sharp and I just count laps and then test shave. My razor sensei likes to wave the razor over his forearm and go by how easy and silently it wacks the top off arm hair when the razor is about a quarter inch above the skin, and at the bevel stage he looks at how close to the skin he has to go to get it to cut, and if it won't shave arm hair when touching the skin he knows he isn't even close to a bevel yet. We both also look at the reflection under a bright light and this will tell you a lot about the bevel once you get the hang of it.

If I think the razor already has a decent bevel but I'm not sure but it might could be better, I don't raise a burr. I just do 20 regular laps on the bevel setter and look at the reflection and sometimes do a swipe on the forearm or leg or belly. If I am satisfied then a couple dozen very light laps more, just barely any pressure, and move on up into the progression. The burr method is overkill when the bevel is already almost there. But anyway that is a use of a visual cue. A loupe would help I guess but with the light bright enough I don't need it. I just got a USB microscope but it is pretty dodgy to use and so I don't rely on it during honing.

To be honest, when I first read about the pyramid method, I laughed.. I thought it sounded pretty retarded. But now I can see how it could work for a noob who doesn't have developed enough observation skills to recognize the cues. Eventually it will give you a usable edge. So in that case, the only cues are number of laps and if it shaves LOL!

I really don't do the TPT or HHT or TNT or any of that stuff, myself. Not saying they aren't any good, but I just don't need more tools than what I already got in the bag.

So there are a lot of ways to skin that cat, and it is interesting to see how other guys are doing it. It is kind of validating to see that so many other guys are like me going by the suction feeling to tell them to move up a grit. I guess at least sometimes, great minds think alike hehehe.

This is in response to some of the issues raised above and is just a short tutorial about honing a basic edge on a razor. It is meant to help newer honers to get an idea of what is involved.

When we start with a razor that is in need of a new bevel, the honing session might go something like this. First and foremost we must focus on keeping the blade absolutely F L A T on all the stones while we hone.

We will begin on the 1k stone until the bevel is completely set. We will stay on the 1k stone until the bevel is correctly set. [Refer to the WIKI if you don't understand what a bevel is]. We use a Sharpie marker on the edge and keep honing the edge on the 1k until all evidence of the Sharpie ink is completely gone, checking the edge with an illuminated jeweler's loupe. At this point, all that will be left on the razor edge is a nice even pattern of 1k scratch marks along the entire length of the blade on both sides. Also at this point we should be able to easily shave arm/leg hair at skin level or even above skin level.

If we have properly set the new bevel, it is time to move up to a 3k or 4k stone and begin the polishing phase of the razor honing. We will hone a combination of circles and x strokes until
1. all the 1k scratch marks are gone and.
2. the razor edge is easily popping hairs above skin level.

Check the edge with the loupe for any imperfections and 1k scratch marks. Remembering what the 1k scratch marks looked like, and the surface of the razor edge should now look much smoother and begin to shine. Watch how the hairs react when you cut them. They should easily fly away or even fall straight down onto you arm. When hairs fall straight down, it is an indication that you are doing your job well.

Before moving to the 8k stone, we can do 5 or 6 light circles on the 4k to dress the edge up. We are now moving to the 8k stone. Do 5 or 6 very light pressure circle strokes on the 8k and then do 8 no pressure x-strokes on the 8k stone.

On your strop, do 40 on fabric and 60 on leather. Test shave a spot on your face. If the razor tugs on your skin, repeat the 8k sequence and strop again. Our goal is to get a smooth shave from the 8k stone. Once you master the 8k shave, most all the other higher grit finish stones will serve you well. It's just a matter of experience and feel.

Shaving leg hair well. When it does that I go from the 8 to the 16 and not before.

The most I do now is a few hairs on the back of my hand. The arm or leg thing reminded me too much of 'ring worm'(use to be in ~ public health).
Tried the circle thing with the honing. Could remember if it was clockwise or counter...(or if that had to do with the hemisphere you were in?) So I just do it straight.