Thread: Jnats for noobs

Originally Posted by Martin103

In all honesty i agree 100% with Euclid on this topic, i just hate to see a new honer spend a small fortune on a j-nat when they have no sense on how to set a bevel or what a shave ready edge feel like.

And also not to "rain on your parade" but if your DE shaves are closer then your straights, then either your edges or technique are not up to par. Just recently was reading a thread about this and pretty much all experienced shavers totally agreed that the straigh was much closer then the DE and its my experience as well.

Thanks for the feedback... I really appreciate it. Though, I guess I am an outlier in some respects.

I do know what a shave ready edge feels like. It's glorious. I have edges prepared on Naniwa 12k, J-Nats and Coti's.. all done by professinals. I prefer the natural edge. And, I do know how to set a bevel, as well as its importance.

I don't think you're raining on my parade. Clearly, I don't have the level of expertise that many others have with straight razors. I wouldn't dare be so arrogant as to think otherwise. I've been using a DE for ages. After trying many different combinations of razors and blades, I found the Holy Grail DE. That's when the challenge and fun went out of my DE shaves. They became repeatable and flawless. Haven't gotten to that point with the straight yet, but that's part of the attraction and romance, and it will come.

My edges.. nearly all are professionally done. Can't lay blame there. Technique? Sure it could use improvement. Most folks can. What I find is that my face favors the DE in certain spots and straight in others. Both can give me a BBS (I think I said that). The DE hits a few patches in my beard map that I can't get to efficiently with the straight. And the straight hits other spots with more efficiency than the DE. Every persons face is different and DEs and Straights favor different parts of my face and are not nearly as quick and effortless as the DE. There is no right or wrong about it. But I can't lie, your words make me feel different. Not sure why that is, or whether it's intentional.

Either way, the point of sharing my thoughts was simply to support the OP. That's all.

I am curious why there is so little encouragement when it comes to the natural stones? Sometimes it okay to just say.. I don't agree, but I wish you luck none-the-less.

I am curious why there is so little encouragement when it comes to the natural stones?

Aha! Finally a question I can answer in this thread! Imagine for a moment, that you receive phone calls, text messages, and emails all day everyday from ten new SR shavers, trying to use their newest ultra rare luxury import stone. They want you to tell them how best to use it. Now imagine the same ten guys who instead, bought synthetics. The questions, in both cases, will be the same. But the answers are only worth something if you are in the latter group. If in the former, the true answer is, "I dont have a clue...sorry buddy." Cause your stone ain't my stone, even if they both came from the same old mountain in Kyoto. But if you've got a Norton, well hell...I can help ya! I got a Norton too, and by gum, it's just exactly the same in every way as yours.

Irrespective of that, I love natural stones too. And I love them for all the same reasons as most. And I hate them for all the same reasons as well. The OP made it clear that he would expect the noob learning japanese naturals to have a basic understanding of honing prior to making this jump. So maybe a more proper title for the thread would be "The Novice Guide to Proven Applied Principles of Advanced Honing using Japanese Natural Stones." But then really, how many of us would have even opened it up? Sounds a bit stuffy, no?

So, to get back to the point, if there's something new to know about honing with japanese naturals that hasn't been covered in other threads, I'd love to read about it. But, I think it's all here already. Experience is the best teacher btw. If you've got the dough, and the time, I say go buy some. Have fun. I once asked Randydance about making razors and knives. He gave the best advice ever I think. He said, well if you wanna learn, go buy some steel, and start grinding. So, I'll steal that nugget and say, If you wanna learn Japanese naturals, go buy some, and start honing. With the addendum that every minute we spend online is another minute we didn't spend practicing. And practice is what it's all about in the end.

Originally Posted by MikekiM

Thanks for the feedback... I really appreciate it. Though, I guess I am an outlier in some respects.

I do know what a shave ready edge feels like. It's glorious. I have edges prepared on Naniwa 12k, J-Nats and Coti's.. all done by professinals. I prefer the natural edge. And, I do know how to set a bevel, as well as its importance.

I don't think you're raining on my parade. Clearly, I don't have the level of expertise that many others have with straight razors. I wouldn't dare be so arrogant as to think otherwise. I've been using a DE for ages. After trying many different combinations of razors and blades, I found the Holy Grail DE. That's when the challenge and fun went out of my DE shaves. They became repeatable and flawless. Haven't gotten to that point with the straight yet, but that's part of the attraction and romance, and it will come.

My edges.. nearly all are professionally done. Can't lay blame there. Technique? Sure it could use improvement. Most folks can. What I find is that my face favors the DE in certain spots and straight in others. Both can give me a BBS (I think I said that). The DE hits a few patches in my beard map that I can't get to efficiently with the straight. And the straight hits other spots with more efficiency than the DE. Every persons face is different and DEs and Straights favor different parts of my face and are not nearly as quick and effortless as the DE. There is no right or wrong about it. But I can't lie, your words make me feel different. Not sure why that is, or whether it's intentional.

Either way, the point of sharing my thoughts was simply to support the OP. That's all.

I am curious why there is so little encouragement when it comes to the natural stones? Sometimes it okay to just say.. I don't agree, but I wish you luck none-the-less.

So after your get consistent bbs straight shaves, what next on your agenda mike? Honing up the fender of your car and having a go at it at 80 MPH on the 135? Reckless! Lmao!

I agree nat edges are my preference too. A smooth nat edge is like driving to the beach, some times it's nice to take your time, feel the wind in your hair and breath the ocean air. In feeling poetic in this new year. :-)

I say this, because I learned on natural stones, Arks. In those days there was no internet, no video and no shaving suppliers open to the public.

You bought you razor and stones from the barber or a gun show. He was also the only source of instruction or another straight shaver of which there were few. I am sure many gave up and bought a Bic.

I did take my razors back to him to be honed and watched, intently before I figured it out.

Can it be done? Sure…

A novice needs to learn to hone first and do so in the easiest way that will teach how to obtain a shaveable edge.
Set yourself up for success… But it is your dime and you can do as you wish, Lord knows, many have traveled that road…and given up.

I am reminded of a recent thread were even with good synthetic stones and many good people trying to help…

Natural stones are a challenge, but there are plenty of resources to help people get started. It never ends though as I believe you will always achieve better. False information is an obstacle though as many who have never used them have always expressed their unfounded fears that it cant be done. Or why use a Jnat when you have a naniwa 12? Nothing wrong with a naniwa 12, but its a different sharp ,smoothness and shave. Worth striving for IMO. But only if you want to.

Originally Posted by bill3152

Natural stones are a challenge, but there are plenty of resources to help people get started. It never ends though as I believe you will always achieve better. False information is an obstacle though as many who have never used them have always expressed their unfounded fears that it cant be done. Or why use a Jnat when you have a naniwa 12? Nothing wrong with a naniwa 12, but its a different sharp ,smoothness and shave. Worth striving for IMO. But only if you want to.

All good sir... A healthy exchange for all of us.

Nothing wrong with a Naniwa 12k. Nothing wrong with processed grains, kidney beans and empty carbs, if that's what you diet and palette dictates.. Not my thing though and I wouldn't think of trying to change your mind regardless of how bad I think these things are for you. Again, I am in the minority, I know.

Every one has something that motivates them and makes them happy and excited to see tomorrow.

Hopefully this thread gets back on track and I apologize if I took it on a detour, but I was excited by your initial post and hope it would grow into something useful for all who want the challenge of learning and mastering the zen of the natural stones.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Can it be done? Sure…

A novice needs to learn to hone first and do so in the easiest way that will teach how to obtain a shaveable edge.
Set yourself up for success… But it is your dime and you can do as you wish, Lord knows, many have traveled that road…and given up.

And a few must have succeeded along the way... You did. And you had less resources available than we do now.

That's all I'm saying..

"Dude...go ahead and learn on the naturals..it's a tough road and you won't get a whole lot of help given how different all the stones are.. But go for it and good luck."

Originally Posted by regularjoe

......"I dont have a clue...sorry buddy."

Well, that's almost the same as "I don't agree with you, but good luck anyway". I can be okay with that.

The missing link is that there are likely many gents among us who have mastered, and prefer, the J-Nats. Granted, they are outnumbered by the Synth-Heads (said with all due respect and a sprinkling of humor). Where are the J-Nat guys hanging out? I want to hang with them.

Even if you are shooting pool, when I am playing billiards, we are both playing on a rectangular table and our goal is to use the same pool cue, angles and ball control to win. That's what I extracted from the OP's intent for the post. Let's take all that we know and dump it one place to help the new guy get started.

But I get the feeling if your table has pockets, the commonalities of cue, angles and ball control never come into consideration by the guys playing with just three cushions.

Originally Posted by JoeLowett

So after your get consistent bbs straight shaves, what next on your agenda mike? Honing up the fender of your car and having a go at it at 80 MPH on the 135? Reckless! Lmao!

Ah Joe, my friend... I'll have to go find something other honing a fender.. I drive a Jeep...I don't have fenders.

Happy New Year to you and your family!

Sorry I goofed up all the quotes... iPad is not the best tool for multi-quotes.

Mike,

I am not saying don't, or that synthetic stone are better than naturals.

I am saying for the novice learning to hone, an inexpensive, repeatable, known, reliable, practically bullet proof synthetic stone will teach a novice how to get a repeatable, shaveable edge.

From there go in any direction you wish.

We are not anti-natural stones, hell most of us would grind them up and inject them if we thought we could get a better edge. I have well over a hundred naturals and still collecting. Rare is the stone that can improve a 12k edge, though I have a few and they are fun to use. And as you say some of those edges are special.

I also have several synthetics from a variety of makers, a cabinet of paste and strops and film. There is no, one road to a keen edge.
Most novices have a simple agenda, make my razor shave. The quickest route is the interstate… a synthetic, by no means the only way.

Enjoy the road.

1. Choose a hard stone, and only use it for finishing, while you learn to sharpen your razor with synths.
2. Don't buy one of those 1400 dollar stones off ebay.
3. Expect that you're gonna buy some duds, while you look for the one or several that will fulfill the duties of a properly ordered synth progression.
4. Read everything Jim's written here. Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated. | Eastern Smooth: The Blog
5. Be sure and read the manuscript written by Iwasaki, and translated by Jim called Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori.
6. Recognize that if your slurry feels gritty, the stone is a paperweight...Get rid of it now...Preferably make it into dust, so that nobody else has to deal with it again.
7. Progressive slurry dilutions still work, but Japanese natural slurry will break down into finer and yet finer component parts while honing, unlike coticule stone.
8. Number 7 doesn't mean you won't have to dilute, because you are still dealing with steel particles, that IMO, oughta be cleared from the stone regularly. But it gets real hairy here because your stone is unique to itself. No other person can really advise you specifically, unless you let them use your stone for awhile.
9. After you've spent 3 hours setting your bevel, go ahead and set your bevel again a few more times, cause it's probably not done yet.
10. Number nine actually is universal.
11. Never give up.
12. Never give up.
13. Never, ever give up.
14. One stone, and several different slurry stones, is an option with jnats.
15. If it were me, I'd find out who Mainaman buys from, and buy from them also.
16. Aframestokyo has some nice looking pieces.

I tried harder to stick with the topic this time. Wow, that's way harder than I imagined.

If nothing else, read Iwasakis manuscript a few times.

And yes, you quoted me out of context, which completely changes the meaning. The primary point is that naturals are unique to themselves. But, yes, best of luck. Agreement or disagreement was never my intent.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

1. Choose a hard stone, and only use it for finishing, while you learn to sharpen your razor with synths.
2. Don't buy one of those 1400 dollar stones off ebay.
3. Expect that you're gonna buy some duds, while you look for the one or several that will fulfill the duties of a properly ordered synth progression.
4. Read everything Jim's written here. Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated. | Eastern Smooth: The Blog
5. Be sure and read the manuscript written by Iwasaki, and translated by Jim called Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori.
6. Recognize that if your slurry feels gritty, the stone is a paperweight...Get rid of it now...Preferably make it into dust, so that nobody else has to deal with it again.
7. Progressive slurry dilutions still work, but Japanese natural slurry will break down into finer and yet finer component parts while honing, unlike coticule stone.
8. Number 7 doesn't mean you won't have to dilute, because you are still dealing with steel particles, that IMO, oughta be cleared from the stone regularly. But it gets real hairy here because your stone is unique to itself. No other person can really advise you specifically, unless you let them use your stone for awhile.
9. After you've spent 3 hours setting your bevel, go ahead and set your bevel again a few more times, cause it's probably not done yet.
10. Number nine actually is universal.
11. Never give up.
12. Never give up.
13. Never, ever give up.
14. One stone, and several different slurry stones, is an option with jnats.
15. If it were me, I'd find out who Mainaman buys from, and buy from them also.
16. Aframestokyo has some nice looking pieces.

I tried harder to stick with the topic this time. Wow, that's way harder than I imagined.

If nothing else, read Iwasakis manuscript a few times.

And yes, you quoted me out of context, which completely changes the meaning. The primary point is that naturals are unique to themselves. But, yes, best of luck. Agreement or disagreement was never my intent.

Now THAT is a good read... thank you!

Yeah, the -quote-excerpts can be dangerous.. I try to be very careful with that. But the full quotes can get equally hairy.

Fortunately, it looks like I am heading in the right direction. I am sticking to my plan to use the synth for bevel set for sure and then up to 8k for now, and slowly introduce the naturals earlier and earlier until the 4/8 is out of the picture. No way I am ready to set bevels with the J-Nat or Coti. I don't have that much time.

The Shuobudan 100 seemed like a good place to start. Looking for a set of Nagura now and have watched Mainaman's Nagura Honing videos a gojillion times. And I've read all that I can find on Eastern Smooth.. good stuff.

Points 9 & 10.. should be sticky posts, each by them self.

The Iwasaki manuscript.. I haven't read it yet. I have a few days of and it will make good reading. Thank you. I've found a lot of mention to Hamono no Mikata(How to appreciate a blade)? Which I think is also by Iwasaki. I haven't come across the full transcript.. Is that the same document?

I have a few things I share with my daughter as she is maturing (she's still just 10 years old, but I figure by the time she is an adult she will have heard these snippets enough times that she might remember at one or two).

It's okay to struggle... but never, ever give up

Never a mistake, always a lesson.

I believe both of these thoughts are highly appropriate to share here.

Happy New Year to all of you!!