Thread: A theory on Over Honing (not mine BUT interesting)

Greetings!
interesting read. I don't know if this is a common alternate theory; if it is well known, but I'd love to hear what Honemiesters or other think about it.

It basically states that one can't over hone.
That the geometry of the razor prevents this.
That the phemenon of 'flaking' is really the 'uncovering' of scratches that occurred on lower grit stones.

Oh, and for guys like me...there are some cool pictures...

Here is the link: My Theory on Overhoning Straight Razors – Part 1 | Jende Industries Blog

If you mean with high grit hones yes there is this theory most probably subscribe to that it is very difficult to over hone a razor. It's not impossible but is really rare. However take a razor and put it on a 660 grit hone and hone away with wild abandon and see what happens.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

take a razor and put it on a 660 grit hone and hone away with wild abandon and see what happens.

I'd rather not!
I'm Very careful when using my Barber's hone...5-7 passes.
I just found the article interesting...thought I'd share...

Originally Posted by ColonelG

Greetings!
interesting read. I don't know if this is a common alternate theory; if it is well known, but I'd love to hear what Honemiesters or other think about it.

It basically states that one can't over hone.
That the geometry of the razor prevents this.
That the phemenon of 'flaking' is really the 'uncovering' of scratches that occurred on lower grit stones.

Oh, and for guys like me...there are some cool pictures...

Here is the link: My Theory on Overhoning Straight Razors – Part 1 | Jende Industries Blog

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

If you mean with high grit hones yes there is this theory most probably subscribe to that it is very difficult to over hone a razor. It's not impossible but is really rare. However take a razor and put it on a 660 grit hone and hone away with wild abandon and see what happens.

I saw this article some time ago and think it's interesting and accurate. It seems to me that all the work is done at the lower levels, say below 5k or so, and the number of laps on higher grits while removing metal and refining the edge also exposes "misses" at the lower grits.

And yeah, the photos are great.

As thebigspendur wrote, the lower levels are where the big cutting is done.

Interesting read, thanks. Like every theory I have read, I find holes. Einstein's theory has holes :<0) This is why they are called theorys.

I mostly agree with the argument presented.
The pictures used though are a good example of confirmation bias, in my opinion.

The biggest problem with using a large number of strokes on a high grit stone I'd that it increases the likelihood of a bad stroke that can only be corrected by going to a lower grit stone.

Originally Posted by 10Pups

Interesting read, thanks. Like every theory I have read, I find holes. Einstein's theory has holes :<0) This is why they are called theorys.

I'm comfortable skipping Einstein, but I am curious what holes you found in the article.

Overhoning may exist as a problem, but I've never encountered it in my honing and so am loathe to suggest that others be wary of it. The phenomenon of microchipping seems to me less related to the particulars of the honing progress and more directly the result of unique metallurgical properties of the steel being honed. My completely unsupported theory is that the particular steel being honed, perhaps even just a small portion or layer of the steel right at the edge, suffers from some uneven or undesirable distribution of martensite and austenite. These are the two crystal structures of steel as it's quenched and then hardened. I don't understand the details and it's incredibly complex, but I've seen many, many industrial metals failures and it's frequently a result of internal stresses in the steel related to undesirable austenite to martensite transformation.

In a razor, this would present itself as areas of increased stress along the grain lines of the martensite. This would make those areas more prone to cracking along the grain lines. The act of honing is an abrasive action, but at the micro level, it is also impact. This would cause any micro fissures present at the edge to propagate along the grain lines and the end result would be a piece of steel popping out.

Now, having said this, I'm no metallurgist and am committing the act of applying analysis from a series of other events to an unrelated one. Still, one of the things frequently missing from our discussions of razor honings is an understanding of what's happening at the crystalline level of the steel. This must inevitably have an impact on how any given razor behaves on our stones and is, imho, a better explanation for microchipping than "over honing".

Good reading material. Thanks for posting it.

Hmmmm..

Although I am also part of the "Overhoning is not an worrisome issue club" and have been since before Tom ever picked up a Straight Razor

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...er-honing.html

You have to understand that history of the entire issue first when applied to Straight Razors..


Back in the Dark Ages of SRP Overhoning was a word that got tossed out after near every post that said "I honed my razor on my Norton 4/8 and it won't cut, what did I do wrong??? " That was answered by a statement of "You probably overhoned it"

In contrast that is now normally answered by the statement "The bevel probably isn't set correctly"

What changed ??? Please don't take my word for this simply drop back to 2008 or a bit earlier in the archives and read for yourself...

There was a push from a few of us to prove the "Unset Bevel" theory, it went so far as offers being made to new honers that some of us were setting the bevels on their razors and then letting them simply finish the razors.. The 1k Shaving challenges.. all kinds of threads and pics
You also have to understand that back then it was a challenge to get people to accept that Progressive honing as in 1-4-8-finisher in a row worked, and that you did not HAVE to do pyramids to prevent overhoning.. The honing information for straight razors has come a long way in a short time but then again this hobby has exploded in a few short years.....

Around 2008ish people began to accept that a poor bevel set was more of an issue then an overhoned edge


Ok there was a little history lesson now back to whether you CAN overhone ???

What Tom is saying in the article is true to an extent, but it is not taking pressure into account, it is also not giving enough words to the steel itself (read Oakeshott's post #8 which is a much more detailed way of saying "Carbide Popping" )...

The real problem could be in the Term "Overhoning" itself because it is used for a host of different problems and is not clearly defined but in defense of the term it came from multiple sources many years ago... Barber's manuals and Barber's Hones often warn of the issue yet never clearly define it..

Perhaps it is better said that one can "Incorrectly" hone a given razor and cause a Harsh Fragile Chippy edge that is uncomfortable to shave with and tends to fail quickly...