Thread: Sheffield or Solingen the honing difference?

Keep in mind that technically speaking

Swedish ore is not the same as Swedish steel

So the Swedish or Russian iron ore coming into Sheffield can still be considered Sheffield "steel" after processing when it leaves..

But yes you will find English, German and even Japanese razors stamped "Made with Finest Swedish Steel" too

Actually, it gets convoluted with all the divergences and consolidations of the different steels because of trade between countries that fluctuates with economies and/or political climes. Sheffield, for example, may have found it more expedient to import rather than mine ore locally one year and then reverse it the next year. So I would say that it has more to do with the regional manufacture of steel no matter the iron ore origination. Heat treating and manufacture of the finished product, in my estimation, would seem to be the biggest factors at least until the industrial revolution when manufacturing started to become standardized.

Yes that is exactly what myself and Jimmy were saying..

It is more about the Grind, Hardening and Temper then the steel origin

(Don't wanna put words in Jimmy's mouth but that is the way I understood him)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yes that is exactly what myself and Jimmy were saying..
.....
It is more about the Grind, Hardening and Temper then the steel origin

(Don't wanna put words in Jimmy's mouth but that is the way I understood him)

That is what I'm saying. I'm not an expert, but ...... since that never stopped me in the past ..... ........ :my guess is that when you get into early to mid 1800s Sheffields the tempering/heat treating was done by eye. Major General Julian Hatcher wrote about how the WWI '03 Springfields had a run of blown receivers caused by the same thing. Heat treating by eye. The army, upon investigating the phenomenon, found that depending on whether it was a bright and sunny day, or cloudy and overcast, the color the forgers were looking for varied considerably with the actual heat of the steel.

Say that to say ......... I'm assuming that by a certain date and time ........ maybe the late 1800s, the razor makers had the tempering and heat treatment down pat. The alloys must have been similar. So I could see where an older Sheffield might have different characteristics, as far as feel of the hone and the shave, but once we get into the 'modern era' I'm thinking it is more grind than whether it was done in one country or the other. Just in my unlearned opinion though. Mike Blue, Neil and some of the other knowledgeable steel guys could probably shed more light.

Just to mention I have an "Admirals" etched straight , that clearly states Sheffield Steel made in Germany. Must say its a mighty smooth shaver. That being said I have found that the grind changes everything due to the fact that it changes your angle of incidence in relation to razor to face angles just a couple of degrees but enough to notice if your muscle memory/hand coordination is familiar with just one style of blade. In my 7 days rotation I vary the types of grinds, and find through trial and error that my blades are plenty sharp ,it was the angle that I had to adjust to find each grinds sweet spot in relation to my facial structure. So basically just what everyone else said just stated differently.

I thought I read that Boker still get there steel from a Sheffield source?

Like producers of diverse other products, cost was a factor in the sourcing of ores in Sheffield, but greater than that was compatibility and reproducing the same characteristics. Early on its iron history (which went back to the 14th century but which had already reached a high point in the 1600s and the formation of the Cutlery Guild in 1624) sources were local. Stuff was mined from the blackband ironstone in the coal measures, ores were brought in from Devon, the Forest of Dean, South Wales, Somerset, Devon, etc.

But the writing was already on the wall for foreign ore imports to gain ascendency. One might cite crucible steel and Benjamin Huntsman as an agent of change, but huge amounts of ore came in from Spain, Russia and Sweden. In the mid 1800s output from local mines begin to reach a peak, coming in at about 3 million tons by the 1880s and then falling off as foreign imports began to supplant them. Sheffield, having undergone an era of industrialization was now acknowledged to be the home of 'bijou' or designer steels, making a huge array of steel alloys. Foreign imports had reached about 2.5 million tons by 1880.

The Bessemer converter is often cited as the precursor of cheap quality steel, but in its infancy Henry Bessemer was not able to make it work. It was left to Robert Forester Mushet (of the Darkhill Ironworks in the Forest of Dean, son of the noted iron master and celebrated metallurgist David Mushet of the Clyde Iron Works, the Calder Iron works and Black-band Ironstone) to iron out the problem. A foreign ore was the solution (spathose iron ore from the Rhenish Mountains, aka Speigl-glanz and spiegl-eisen). Bessemer, cad that he was, did not mention Mushet's contribution and went on to a life of fame and fortune, while Mushet spent his last years so poor that his daughter had to berate Bessemer in front of his peers in order to get him some sort of pension.

Since then, Sheffield Steel has been celebrated as being amongst the finest steels, used by Thiers Issard, many German makers, and exported aroung the world. Some of the most famous razor makers in Germany used Sheffield Steel supplied by the Sheffield company of Kayser Ellison & Co.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by gssixgun

(Don't wanna put words in Jimmy's mouth but that is the way I understood him)

I agree.

Grind and proportions have an enormous effect, as does hardness.

The large differences in centuries ago steel had to do with the natural content of the ores, but the days of modern metallurgy, or even crucible steel probably wiped out a lot of the differences above and beyond marketing. First stainless was from ore that was loaded with nickel or something similar, wasn't it? I can't remember where it was from, but not germany or england.

A friend of mine that's a toolmaker likes to say "solingen has been living on their reputation for at least two centuries". He says that when I say that solingen razors are pretty reliable, but no better than the stuff that was coming out of NY and NJ in the united states at the same time. He was charged with making 18th century tools and has gotten stuck studying various related items because of that.

Originally Posted by DaveW

...First stainless was from ore that was loaded with nickel or something similar, wasn't it? I can't remember where it was from, but not germany or england.

While we might very well describe some of the earlier (1800s - 1900s) 'surgical' steels as stainless because of the alloying elements (phosphates, chromium, nickel, etc) they contained, we have to recognise the invention as belonging to the 20th century, and its birthplace as Sheffield.

Harry Brearley was employed as a boy aged 12 by Thomas Firth & Sons, the same crucible steel forge that had employed his father. Firth & Sons had upgraded him to a lab assistant in his 20s and sent him away to college to learn his trade more fully.

In 1901 he left Firth & Sons for a while to work at Kayser Ellisons works, another fine english steel producer. A lot of Firths ore came from Riga and Harry experimented for a while with this. Later, Harry was to spend a great deal of time at Firths research labs, particularly to evolve a steel that eroded less than that commonly used for arms parts. He was not trying to make a stainless steel, rather he was more concerned about the amount of chromium and carbon that went into the alloy.

In 1913 he came up trumps and announced his new 'rustless' steel. Firths were less enamoured of the alloy, indeed it needed expert handling and the first two batches sent to various Sheffield cutlery firms were deemed a failure.

Harry wouldn't give up though, and oversaw the forging of another batch by a small firm called Moseley at the Portland Works. The name was changed fron rustless to stainless and the product took off, only to be halted in its tracks by the onset of WW1 and delayed another decade or so.

The criterion of stainless was a minimum 10.5% chromium cont that allowed the easily corroded low carbon iron steel to form a passive coating of oxide which resisted attack.

Regards,
Neil

I have one Sheffield to compare; a Wolstenholm pipe razor. It is a full hollow. It, coincidentally is the smoothest razor I own. I don't have many to compare and didn't think much of it until I noticed this thread.