Thread: Jnat finishing

Originally Posted by aa1192

Well, I just ordered an Ozuku Tomo from Aframes Japan to see what that does for me. Seems like finding a great Tomo is very hit or miss assuming you don't cut one directly from your stone; which crossed my mind. I was using my 1k DMT credit card, but it seems to be bleeding diamonds. I guess either it is too fine for the job or maybe I got a dud, but even on my coti it releases grit into the slurry. I can always go back to my DMT 325 but that seems overly aggressive and a pain to slurry with. The edge from the JNS Tomo isn't bad but I bought a really fine stone to really hit the outer limits and not be held back by my Tomo. I saw Glenn started a thread recently about Naguras and how much of a role your base stone truly plays and the results are very interesting to read.

AN ozuku is a very hard stone. This is a good thing! It is likely it is harder than your base stone. ROund a corner on your dmt to smooth it and use that to produce your slurry. If done carefully you will end up with much more base stone slurry than tomo. But it will be much finer than the dia slurry IMO. Same stone tomos IME arent the best. Out of all my stones(2 dozen or so) I only found one that plays nice with same stone tomo. Just keep that in mind before you decide to chop an end off.

Originally Posted by bill3152

But it will be much finer than the dia slurry .

I think this is where I tend to disagree..

I have read this same statement by near every person that uses Nagura and have read the exact opposite from every one that uses only their stone..

To be absolutely honest it make s no logical sense nor have I seen proof..

Slurry released by rubbing two stones together, one of which is known to be softer and coarser, makes a smaller initial grit release then using a uniform diamond plate that give off no grit particles of it's own not logical

Then we have to discuss breakdown since most of us do believe that all our J-nat slurries are Friable we must therefore believe that the slurry break down. I have a bit more of a hard time believing that two separate and distinct grits from two stones breaks down finer then one grit from a very fine stone...

I guess it could be true but lacking real proof, I have to say I am highly skeptical but it seems that it is a case of "often repeated easily believed"

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think this is where I tend to disagree..

I have read this same statement by near every person that uses Nagura and have read the exact opposite from every one that uses only their stone..

To be absolutely honest it make s no logical sense nor have I seen proof..

Slurry released by rubbing two stones together, one of which is known to be softer and coarser, makes a smaller initial grit release then using a uniform diamond plate that give off no grit particles of it's own not logical

Then we have to discuss breakdown since most of us do believe that all our J-nat slurries are Friable we must therefore believe that the slurry break down. I have a bit more of a hard time believing that two separate and distinct grits from two stones breaks down finer then one grit from a very fine stone...

I guess it could be true but lacking real proof, I have to say I am highly skeptical but it seems that it is a case of "often repeated easily believed"

Thanks for the comment. Well Im not a scientist but Ive used many different materials to do some scratch tests. I used glass at first but realizing that glass is as hard or harder than most stone even though alot of whats in a Jnat is silicate. Anyway, I used a piece of plexiglass, ran a dmt on it , then I took a tomo nagura rounded corner as I use and ran it on the plexi. Big difference in scratch patterns in the 2 samples. Now what are scratches? These are marks made by an abrasive. Ive tried this on the side of a coke bottle, same thing and a scrap of marble as well. I used the material being scratched held vertical so as not to say the plate is heavier than the tomo. Many tomo naguras are at the same level particle wise as finishing stones, which is probably 6-10k maximum. I think the rapid breaking of slurry is occuring with dia plate slurry as a result of the abrasiveness of the larger particles on each other. A dmt or atoma is made to cut into steel or stone, thus the teeth and orientation of these diamonds, stones while they can break off large particles if your not careful, IMO release smaller particles. Again Im not a scientist but I feel these observations make sense to me. I welcome any other comments or experiments any others have done. If what Im saying doesnt make sense, thats ok. It just makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by aa1192

I was using my 1k DMT credit card, but it seems to be bleeding diamonds. I guess either it is too fine for the job or maybe I got a dud, but even on my coti it releases grit into the slurry. I can always go back to my DMT 325 but that seems overly aggressive and a pain to slurry with.

Yes. Fine DMT's do not survive lapping so you probably got a few more miles using it only as a slurry stone.
DMT recommends nothing finer than their DMT C or 325 as some call it.
The only reason one can get away with an Atoma 1200 is that the diamond coat is on a pimpled surface which does not lock onto the stone destrying the nickel matrix. DMT's being a continuous coat are more susceptible to damage.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...w-problem.html

Originally Posted by bill3152

Thanks for the comment. Well Im not a scientist but Ive used many different materials to do some scratch tests. I used glass at first but realizing that glass is as hard or harder than most stone even though alot of whats in a Jnat is silicate. Anyway, I used a piece of plexiglass, ran a dmt on it , then I took a tomo nagura rounded corner as I use and ran it on the plexi. Big difference in scratch patterns in the 2 samples. Now what are scratches? These are marks made by an abrasive. Ive tried this on the side of a coke bottle, same thing and a scrap of marble as well. I used the material being scratched held vertical so as not to say the plate is heavier than the tomo. Many tomo naguras are at the same level particle wise as finishing stones, which is probably 6-10k maximum. I think the rapid breaking of slurry is occuring with dia plate slurry as a result of the abrasiveness of the larger particles on each other. A dmt or atoma is made to cut into steel or stone, thus the teeth and orientation of these diamonds, stones while they can break off large particles if your not careful, IMO release smaller particles. Again Im not a scientist but I feel these observations make sense to me. I welcome any other comments or experiments any others have done. If what Im saying doesnt make sense, thats ok. It just makes sense to me.

How much slurry you make & how hard you press & how worn your diamond plate is will all make a difference to your honing results. What I call a final slurry most would call clear water. I know Jimbo has a similar Asagi to me & works his the same. I'm also sure I've posted enough of my cosmetically polished edges using Atoma "slurry" that are not scratched or chipped. The particle size theory may well be a moot point if the tools are handled correctly.

I also finish with very thin slurry tinged water, using a well-worn Atoma 1200. Take a look at the image and you can see how worn it is. It won't scratch the hone no matter how hard you press, and it doesn't generate slurry fast. I'm in the process of curating a couple more to take its place as it's approaching the end of its useful life. I think Alex Gilmore is the only one with one worn more than this one.

If your plate isn't well worn, the slurry initially doesn't feel as smooth but like Onimaru55 I can tell little if any difference in the final result. With my worn plate, I can tell no difference. That's not to say that some natural naguras won't produce a better result, but it won't be because of the slurry "size", and ones that would beat this plate are uncommon.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by onimaru55

How much slurry you make & how hard you press & how worn your diamond plate is will all make a difference to your honing results. What I call a final slurry most would call clear water. I know Jimbo has a similar Asagi to me & works his the same. I'm also sure I've posted enough of my cosmetically polished edges using Atoma "slurry" that are not scratched or chipped. The particle size theory may well be a moot point if the tools are handled correctly.

Originally Posted by bill3152

Thanks for the comment. Well Im not a scientist but Ive used many different materials to do some scratch tests. I used glass at first but realizing that glass is as hard or harder than most stone even though alot of whats in a Jnat is silicate. Anyway, I used a piece of plexiglass, ran a dmt on it , then I took a tomo nagura rounded corner as I use and ran it on the plexi. Big difference in scratch patterns in the 2 samples. Now what are scratches? These are marks made by an abrasive. Ive tried this on the side of a coke bottle, same thing and a scrap of marble as well. I used the material being scratched held vertical so as not to say the plate is heavier than the tomo. Many tomo naguras are at the same level particle wise as finishing stones, which is probably 6-10k maximum. I think the rapid breaking of slurry is occuring with dia plate slurry as a result of the abrasiveness of the larger particles on each other. A dmt or atoma is made to cut into steel or stone, thus the teeth and orientation of these diamonds, stones while they can break off large particles if your not careful, IMO release smaller particles. Again Im not a scientist but I feel these observations make sense to me. I welcome any other comments or experiments any others have done. If what Im saying doesnt make sense, thats ok. It just makes sense to me.

Sorry but the logic of testing the scratch pattern of the DMT vs Nagura evades me completely..

Now please understand that personally I have used both systems and I think both are viable, I feel the difference in edges are coming from the Base Stone and the Techniques used by the guy pushing the edge..

But I do think that saying that a quality Diamond Plate releases some kind of "huge chunks" of base stone while the Nagura does not, is something that I just have a bit of trouble digesting... The results on both styles of edges just haven't ever proved that out to me...


I accept the statements "I get the best results from using a "Blank" Nagura on my J-Nat"
I accept the statement "I get the best results my using the slurry raised from my J-Nat and working from there"


But every time I read that part about the size of the grit released especially as it gets more and more "descriptive" "thus the teeth and orientation of these diamonds, stones while they can break off large particles" I just SMH and think that I haven't found that to be true..


In closing, I am not saying either one is a better system, I am saying it is dependent on the Base Stone and the Operator...