Thread: Honing mysticism

Originally Posted by DaveW

I think when people who are beginners buy coticules attempting "one hone" restoration, they're asking for trouble.

And every time a beginner asks for a honing system involving a minimum investment, they are recommended.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

And every time a beginner asks for a honing system involving a minimum investment, they are recommended.

I guess a good one is OK for maintenance (which doesn't include bevel setting), but in a proper setup, only an 8k synthetic stone is needed for maintenance (I've not, in years, gone below a japanese barber hone for maintenance unless someone asks me to test a stone, and when that's the case, I don't use my favorite razors).

A coticule is OK for that I guess, but most produce a subpar edge and cost more than a stone that doesn't, and certainly more than honing compounds, etc. They are pretty, though. It would be different if they were $50. Many of the very sought after vintage barber hones were only a couple of bucks (the same price as an india bench stone or carborundum stone) when they were distributed.

I suppose I look like the contrarian in this discussion exchange, and I should put up or shut up on youtube. I'll have to look through my razors and see what I have (and make a video if I have something good for oilstone honing) It's not my intention to be contrary for just no reason, and I don't have anything against synthetic stones - I just don't use them that much right now.

And that’s why Baskin Robins, has 32 flavors…

Originally Posted by bluesman7

And every time a beginner asks for a honing system involving a minimum investment, they are recommended.

I must have missed most of those posts,,, I see the barber hone mentioned the most under those circumstances, then the Norton 4/8,,,,,

Is this quote different from knowing what you don't know?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Confucius say: Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.

Often, that is hard to do… except when looking back on it… then, it is crystal clear.

Hence the term, DUH!

I would disagree about the coti producing a subpar edge. If that were the case they would have not had such an allure in the barber world. They don't produce the ultimate edge ever but for sure a DFS edge to most and to some guys the "best" edge ever. I also think using the dilucot system makes it easy to use, though very time consuming until you learn your personal rock. I have never tried Arkansas stones and probably will eventually, but I'm back logged on other finishers. I think initially synthetics are best for beginners due to consistency and being able to focus solely on technique. After you nail that technique I think you can be successful on almost any stones assuming it's up to snuff. One thing that changed my honing world was learning to hand hone. It makes small stones a breeze and keeping slurry where you want it by tilting the stone as you hone is awesome. If you don't know how to hone in hand learn!

i am firmly in the arkansas hone camp, however i have a piece of slate i keep using...
.hmm oh well.nothing against eschers or coticules i simply havent the desire for either of them at this time and to top it off i can drive 35 minutes and hand pick any ark i desire.salute and good eve.

An escher won't do anything that a good true hard arkansas stone used properly won't do. I came to some eschers after I had tried everything else (because of the price, I finally broke down and tried a couple of eschers and other non escher y/g stones). They were all good stones that made a razor ready to shave and very consistent and requiring not much other than using them a little bit after lapping until they stopped shedding particles.

A new ark stone presents a little bit of a challenge if you haven't conditioned the surface of one, but once conditioned, they are top shelf. The only thing I can think of that cuts finer with oil is jasper, but the jasper has to be lapped free of any mill marks or you get the tiny little edge damage that I showed in pictures in another thread (the shave was still fine with that damage, it stropped off for the most part, but it's unsightly and you can feel the stone gripping the razor if it's not cleaned out).

I'd maintain, after chrome oxing a (high quality japanese phoenix steel) razor last night for the first time in a while, that a user with experience can get to a point where their razor stays - without any powders or compounds - at a level of sharpness that you can get with chrome ox. It just takes some experience and familiarity with the stones you're using. After washing green stuff of of my hands last night, and shaving this morning, I'm about done with the powders. I used to use them because I could get a sharper edge with them, but I can't do that any longer until the powders get so fine (like 0.09 micron iron oxide) that my face turns into a bunch of red dot weepers.

This makes me want to make a video. My videos are awful, but I'm going to make one, anyway. there are a couple of things that I do with arkansas stones that are a little bit different than is done with faster cutting stones. Maybe someone will find it useful.

Originally Posted by aa1192

I would disagree about the coti producing a subpar edge. If that were the case they would have not had such an allure in the barber world. They don't produce the ultimate edge ever but for sure a DFS edge to most and to some guys the "best" edge ever. I also think using the dilucot system makes it easy to use, though very time consuming until you learn your personal rock. I have never tried Arkansas stones and probably will eventually, but I'm back logged on other finishers. I think initially synthetics are best for beginners due to consistency and being able to focus solely on technique. After you nail that technique I think you can be successful on almost any stones assuming it's up to snuff. One thing that changed my honing world was learning to hand hone. It makes small stones a breeze and keeping slurry where you want it by tilting the stone as you hone is awesome. If you don't know how to hone in hand learn!

I'm curious as to whether the old barbers used a coticule shy of the edge like a barber hone is used, because I have seen people quote old literature or old barbers who suggest that the coti should be worked sparingly when maintaining a razors so as not to ruin the edge. I'd agree with that. What I'd like to see more discussion of on these forums is establishing a shaving edge that is maintained with a linen (a real one, like a vintage one) and where the thickness of the edge is kept up with a maintaining stone but never honed off like we tend to ascribe to around here.

IME, the edge that is maintained thus (the learning curve to do that is a bit high for a beginner, to have the touch to know when you've worked enough but not too much) is a bit better than the edge that comes fresh off of stones and powder. It's just as sharp as a powder edge, but smoother.

Otherwise, though, I couldn't put coticules in the same class (generally) as the more consistent stones. Just my personal opinion. It is too hard to look at them and tell whether they're coarse or fine, and the ones that aren't that fine just really don't deliver that good of an edge without stopping short of the edge itself (with the edge thinning technique, any decent stone can be used, doesn't have to be a great one - but at some point the edge still needs to be established first).