Thread: Honing mysticism

Originally Posted by aa1192

I find though that when talking about naturals; people naturally jump to these intricacies and nuances particular to each stone that may only move an edge from 99.8 percent to 99.99, or a way to speed the honing process and all the other things you figure out to max your stones. I am currently delving into these areas with my jnat, but the initial edge I got was still incredible and these advances I make are minimal,practical difference in relative terms, aka a ceiling effect to honing. That is why I bring up the Nth degree post. It is a wonderful reality check as to how far are you willing to go for the "Uberedge" (TM by aa1192 all rights reserved) Most general questions on hones I don't believe are asking about getting to that level, but more a practical level. We aren't all to be Heisenberg honers aka Lynn, Glenn, Sham, Etc.... I guess deep down I think naturals are simple yet extremely complicated depending on where you wanna end up, but with the right, basic skill set you can easily find success on nearly any natural up to snuff. I don't think we always have to take a stone out on 10 different honing dates before we can get a little HHT action. (Is that second base or third? I think we can all agree the shave test is going all the way)

Well said! Also, one of my considerations is a lasting edge. I have managed to get an edge like a Feather DE blade a few times.
Lasted about as long too!

I remember that day......I hate being recognized by a forum member, especially on a day when I break a heel on my pumps and have to limp around Harrods!

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Hah - I have seen you out shopping wearing tbat tinfoil cap, Bill. I wont say what you bought, but its my wifes favourite colour too and it sure wasn't no hone...

I really shouldn't be on this thread....I have all synthetics and my Mentor whose name rhymes with Darkus said they would not get me laid but would get the job done. At my age that doesn't scare me any...Little Bill has been no more than a rather large skin tag for several years.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think there is also a 'good money after bad' kind of thinking sometimes.
So much money gets spent on natural hones, it's gotta be good, right? I mean, you don't want to spend 1500$ on natural Japanese stones and then come to the conclusion that in terms of shaving, a 100$ shapton 16K will do the same job, right
It just HAS to be better, at some subjective undefinable level.

Not trying to be contrary, but I could never get a shapton 16k to do what some of the naturals can do (albeit it takes a little longer - and I need to use chrome ox off of the shapton to match it). But I agree with the sentiment. There are $100 pieces of koppa that have just as much practical potential as a $1500 maruka bench stone. And it only takes one to maintain every razor I'll ever have.

Really good stones don't need to be expensive, not even naturals.

'Love it that you mention the naked emperor. 'Have several naturals & they have their charm, but the language used to describe their mystical qualities just leaves me cold. 'Read up on Jnats for months. 'Couldn't tell you a dang thing about them at the end of it, other than we have alot of voodoo language surrounding them. My one jnat remains my best finisher, but others have pet rocks of their own. I'm in favor of whatever rock works for you. period. The object is to enjoy your shaves. If a cinder block makes that happen - that's the rock for you. Its easy to lose track of the shave when waxing romantic about our pet rocks. 'Hope whatever method you use - you enjoy your shaves. That's where its at.

The reason those stones have survived is up until about 30-40 years ago, that is all there was. People honed on local stones, you had to learn those stones or go without. Oh yea… and there was no SRP or internet, you learned what your teacher taught you on.

Now days there are much better options that make it much easier and quicker. Can one hone on naturals? Of course, but it will generally take more time and probably the edge will not be as good as a 1,4,8K edge, that is absolutely repeatable.

So what is the technique you used to get you first competitive natural edge? Would you, could you recommend it to a novice honer?

If you are coaching a new honer you set them up for success, eliminate as many variables as possible to guarantee a keen, comfortable edge… and today, that is a natural progression. An 8K synthetic edge is very hard to beat, almost impossible to beat for a novice honer with a natural stone.

Naturals are not mystic… just one more thing to learn, for someone that is probably already overloaded.

Glad you figured it out...

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Now days there are much better options that make it much easier and quicker. Can one hone on naturals? Of course, but it will generally take more time and probably the edge will not be as good as a 1,4,8K edge, that is absolutely repeatable.

I can't agree with this if the stone being used is a good finisher. The trouble for novices is they don't know what a good finisher is, and as you say, they are a bit more difficult to use. A good finisher doesn't have to cost a lot, either. A properly prepared jasper slab can provide a far better shave than an 8k stone.

So what is the technique you used to get you first competitive natural edge? Would you, could you recommend it to a novice honer?

If a novice wanted to learn using natural stones and I was present to examine what they have, I wouldn't have any trouble recommending what I use (which is a progression of arkansas stones usually, followed by some type of superfinisher (a jasper or a vintage very hard japanese stone on clear water), and no pastes or powders). On a new razor that has bevel problems, it takes about 10 minutes for me to get a good edge.

I do not find any improvement with gokumyo edge over the edge I get with the stones I mentioned, not in sharpness, and the gok edge might even be a bit less comfortable/more edgy feeling.

Personally, I think the inexpensive arkansas stones are overlooked as a full set of razor preparers (less the final finish), because most people don't know how to keep the coarse stones awake (and they are afraid to use a bit of pressure on the finishers, which doesn't cause problems like it does on synthetics). I can set a bevel faster on a soft arkansas than I've ever seen anyone do it with a 1k stone. Synthetic coarse stones need to be lapped to stay flat, and natural coarse stones need to be lapped to stay fast.

I think all of this stuff is 6 of 1 and half dozen of another, but the general sentiment that it doesn't need to cost a lot remains true. I can go soft ark to washita (abraded) , washita (not abraded - separate stone) to jasper and get the same edge I'd get using much more expensive japanese stones. The total cost of my soft ark to jasper progression with four stones is about $100 (plus a diamond hone).

What I think will get people in trouble is trying to watch a video of someone using synthetic stones and then getting a set of something like I'd use and trying to use them the same way. There's nothing mystical about any of it, really, it's just familiarity.

The more expensive stones, to my experience, have aspects that make them pleasing to look at or rarer, but not better. No escher can come close to leaving an edge similar to stones I leave in condition to burnish, and the most expensive of the whole lot is a $165 vintage japanese hone, and the cheapest is a $10 piece of owyhee jasper.

You are making the OP’s point, you can do it, but not everybody can.

”I can't agree with this if the stone being used is a good finisher. The trouble for novices is they don't know what a good finisher is, and as you say, they are a bit more difficult to use.”

“Personally, I think the inexpensive arkansas stones are overlooked as a full set of razor preparers (less the final finish), because most people don't know how to keep the coarse stones awake (and they are afraid to use a bit of pressure on the finishers, which doesn't cause problems like it does on synthetics). I can set a bevel faster on a soft arkansas than I've ever seen anyone do it with a 1k stone.”

Naturals are not mystic, they are natural and are not all alike, they are not made by formula and quality controls, they are made over hundreds, thousands of years of weather.

And a novice does not know what to look for. Most of the problem post from novice honers are not about finishers, but are a result of not setting the bevel.

Yes you and anyone that has taken the time to learn Arks can do a full bevel set honing on them, but not a novice that does not know enough to own a loupe.

The majority of novice problem threads involve a natural stone.

Naturals are not mystic, we just talk about them, as if they were because they are each different, some better than others and one has to know what to look for in them.

But first one needs to learn how to hone.

I guess I still don't agree. There's nothing inconsistent about soft arkansas stones except how they are prepared (on the surface) from one company to another. If bought from a specific cutter, they are almost identical, and setting a bevel with them is not difficult - it's no harder than it is to set a bevel on a medium waterstone.

I guess some novices are going to have trouble setting a bevel no matter what stone they'll use. I think the issue is experience and not stones. I'd parallel a setup as such:

1000 grit waterstone / soft arkansas ( a user has to lap a 1k waterstone sometimes, and wake up a soft arkansas sometimes)
3000/4000 grit waterstone / hard arkansas (using dan's spec - and a stone from dans which is already flat and prepared) Same thing as above, one needs flattened, the other needs waking
8k waterstone / black or trans dans oilstone (the only difference is the ark never needs anything, and should only be kept clean - and more pressure needs to be used during most of the honing)

(I only mention dans for the finer stones because they have a more thorough surface preparation on the fine stones than any other places I've bought from)

Now, I agree if we back away and include all naturals, there are some that are very inconsistent (and puzzling to me), like vintage unmarked stones, japanese finishers across various hardnesses, coticules, etc... I think when people who are beginners buy coticules attempting "one hone" restoration, they're asking for trouble.

But I think the problems with beginners are more fundamental, and are less dependent on the stones so long as the stones discussed are of a consistent type. And

In the end, it doesn't really matter that much. It doesn't bother me if few other people use arkansas stones, there aren't any good instructional videos on how to use them that I'm aware of, anyway, and it's always easier to point people to something manufactured that is available across all geographies.

Just as a side comment, the only stones I've ever been disappointed with thoroughly are coticules (because I don't believe you get what you pay for in terms of capability - though I do have several of them), and some of the synthetic finishers that seem to stress an edge if they are used for too many passes.

Just popped up on FB from a friend about martial arts but fits just as well here





Or a distillation of what Mike said above