Thread: Honing mysticism

Whats up with that? some are 10 and some are 100. They say gold. HA!

Seriously, Dave, the deal is we can recommend a loose formula on common KNOWN synthetics and SOME naturals to help and diagnose. Going to oilstones is an individual pursuit.
Those of us interested have many threads on them as well as this one.
A worthwhile pursuit, I think. Oilstones can get a blade nice! I guess the consensus is it is not good for a new guy to start (learn) on them as it is for more experienced to experiment with them. Lots of variables. JMHO

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Simplicity & ease are not interchangeble. The act of honing a razor is as simple or difficult today as it was 30 years ago for me.
The ease with which I do it has changed.

Making ethernet cables, getting those tiny wires in the right sequence at both ends & getting them all the way home in the plug. Now that's difficult....

I used to make hundreds of ethernet and rj11-to-db9 (which required soldering) cables a night while watching TV, they're easy once you get the hang of it

There's also a lot of mysticism in sharpening/honing hand tools... I see people spending a fortune on jigs and stones in order to get the "one true perfect edge". Then, as it took them so much time to get there, they don't go back to the stones until the last possible moment to restore the edge to optimal working conditions.

I am a sort of minimalist at times... if I need a DMT to lap an expensive water stone, I automatically wonder about using the cheaper DMT instead. So now I sharpen tools free-hand on a DMT 1200, followed by a bench strop covered in CrO. If the tool needs some serious regrind, I use a hand-cranked grinder followed by a dirt cheap 4-sided DMT "bench stone". The DMT/CrO process gives me a mirror polish very fast, I'm usually done by the time the jig would have been setup... so I tend to maintain the edge while working. As soon as I feel an increase in resistance, it's a quick 10 passes on the strop.

Originally Posted by MichaelP

easy once you get the hang of it

My point exactly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhTZtUfmCM

This should remove mysticism. If this was someone else's video and not mine, I'd say "too much honing and it looks awkward and clumsy! and too much talking."

But I'd only do this whole process once with a new razor and never again. Sorry I didn't pick up the hair very well in the HHT, this is the first time I've tried to make a video of shaving stuff, and it's with a phone.

I'll make a second video with a razor that's not nicked (I have two NOS razors to hone) and without talking.

Nice video, Dave. Always interesting to see others hone! The 2-handed technique is different. You have that down pat!
I would cut myself trying it! Also, seems some pretty good pressure going on after the bevel set. I think you stated it was because of the slow-cutting nature of the stones. You have done your homework and developed a system which works for you, but tell us this. How many of these stones have you gone through to satisfy yourself of their place in the honing regimen? How many looked the same, yet were not? How long did it take to get to this point? Obviously, you do think outside the box and are a smart, mechanically minded fellow. I just cannot see teaching this without knowing the stones intimately. Seems to be lots of ability and individual effort required?
Thanks! Great video and excellent for a first one. Also, for honing with oilstones, you certainly have on a snappy shirt and watch!

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Nice video, Dave. Always interesting to see others hone! The 2-handed technique is different. You have that down pat!
I would cut myself trying it! Also, seems some pretty good pressure going on after the bevel set. I think you stated it was because of the slow-cutting nature of the stones. You have done your homework and developed a system which works for you, but tell us this. How many of these stones have you gone through to satisfy yourself of their place in the honing regimen? How many looked the same, yet were not? How long did it take to get to this point? Obviously, you do think outside the box and are a smart, mechanically minded fellow. I just cannot see teaching this without knowing the stones intimately. Seems to be lots of ability and individual effort required?
Thanks! Great video and excellent for a first one. Also, for honing with oilstones, you certainly have on a snappy shirt and watch!

Snappy shirt and watch!! haha. That's friday after work stuff. Usually, I'm wearing something more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_zp0klJS3c

As far as the stones go, here's my take on them (and please don't take any of this, method or discussion of stones as any position of authority. I just know that waking up the soft and then using the others as is works without having to resort to any other abrasives). I'm not claiming to be any guru of anything.

I have sharpened about the same number of razors using normal waterstones and the one-hand technique, and I've sharpened some only on coarse through fine japanese stones, the result is about the same every time.

Anyway:
* every true hard stone that I've gotten performs just like the black dans stone. I used the dans stones and the natural whetstone soft/hard coarse stone specifically because they come the way they're shown. I like buying the dans as a second (that stone is a second), because their cosmetic seconds are every bit as good for use.
* The natural whetstone stones are all coarse like that, so it's basically guaranteed
* the washita in the middle is the wildcard. A norton or pike #1 washita or lilywhite is equivalent to that middle stone. They have cutting power a little even when settled in but don't leave deep scratches if they are allowed to settle. A suitable substitute is what dan's calls hard but not true hard (and those are not expensive). labeled lilywhites are expensive (I have those, too, but they are identical to the generic I used there). Unlabeled washitas and vintage softs don't look that different, so it helps to have experience if you're going to take an educated guess at buying vintage stones online.
* The jaspers are all the same once you lap them, but I could get similar results without the jasper at all, it's just insurance. It's probably adds what a couple of trips to the linen add

I guess what I'm trying to get to is that I have 5 soft arks, 10 washitas and probably now about 5 true hards and I could use any combination of them and the result would be the same as here (as long as the hard is broken in). The only stones I've never been that happy with are:
* dans softs (their lapping process makes the stone very fine cutting, and I just think natural whetstones are better for cutting - more porous)
* halls hards - they are good stones, but every one I've seen is far out of flat to start

nortons and dans are both good enough to use, but dans come basically ready for a razor out of the box. Nortons cut a little coarse to start.

I know it might not look like it based on my incompetent oily hanging hair test, but the result of this is similar to what I get off of the gok 20, which is why the gok 20 is in the classifieds. (though the gok is a great stone, and you don't have to think much to use it, nor to prep it).

Nice Vids, Dave.

Where are you buying your Jasper? How much lapping do they need and what are you lapping it with, Diamond Plate or loose Silicone Carbide.

Love that wooden jointer, did you make that puppy?

Good Job, thanks

Marty

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Nice Vids, Dave.

Where are you buying your Jasper? How much lapping do they need and what are you lapping it with, Diamond Plate or loose Silicone Carbide.

Love that wooden jointer, did you make that puppy?

Good Job, thanks

Marty

Thanks, Marty - I am getting the jasper off of ebay or etsy by using terms like:
*large owyhee jasper slab" or
"large biggs jasper slab"

and then trying to find something 6x3 or larger for under $20 shipped

It seems like the pricing if it is almost random, but all we care is that we get a flat slab that we can glue to something flat with some silicone sealant and that doesn't have too deep of saw marks in them. Whoever is cutting them usually does a pretty careful job, I guess because jewelers want to pretty much lap them quickly and polish them.

A jeweler/engraver turned me on to them because I said I wanted something super hard for tools.

I lap mine with an atoma 400, because they're pretty uniform. Silicon carbide grit would probably work, too - it's slow going. One might take 5 minutes and the next might take a half hour to get all of the marks out. The edges of the saw marks are sharp, though, and I'm convinced they do a little damage like we saw in a picture I showed in another thread of a microscope jasper edge. It makes a really nice edge, though, if you're willing to work it for 10 or 15 minutes, it will make the super keen kind of edge you get from tiny submicron powders, but that type of edge is kind of transient, and I'd rather let the linen and strop determine what the edge is and have it be the same every day.

You can slurry the jasper with a diamond hone, use a nagura on it, or my preference is to use it as a burnisher - it works well as a wire edge chaser on tools.

Far as the plane goes, I did make it. I've got an unhealthy fascination with planes, similar to the urge that brought me to straight razors. Most people have forgotten how to properly use double irons, let alone how to make the planes that use them. Someone hooked me up with some beech (which is hard to find in large quartersawn or close to quartersawn billets) and made myself a full set of bench planes (to go along with a cocobolo smoothing plane that I made previously). I made them for the most part by hand (without power tools).

Originally Posted by DaveW

Far as the plane goes, I did make it. I've got an unhealthy fascination with planes, similar to the urge that brought me to straight razors. Most people have forgotten how to properly use double irons, let alone how to make the planes that use them. Someone hooked me up with some beech (which is hard to find in large quartersawn or close to quartersawn billets) and made myself a full set of bench planes (to go along with a cocobolo smoothing plane that I made previously). I made them for the most part by hand (without power tools).

The next step up would now be a rabbet, a pair of snipe bills, a set of quirk beads and a partial set of hollows and rounds. They're fun to make and even funnier to use. I normally get my beech plane blanks from the firewood pile and rive them close to size. Riving also produces very nice turning blanks for London pattern chisel handles.

Unfortunately I didn't get to most of my planes as mint antique ones are cheaper than the iron blanks over here.

Originally Posted by MichaelP

The next step up would now be a rabbet, a pair of snipe bills, a set of quirk beads and a partial set of hollows and rounds. They're fun to make and even funnier to use. I normally get my beech plane blanks from the firewood pile and rive them close to size. Riving also produces very nice turning blanks for London pattern chisel handles.

Unfortunately I didn't get to most of my planes as mint antique ones are cheaper than the iron blanks over here.

I haven't made snipes bills, but I have made part of a set of hollows and rounds. I didn't make the irons in the planes pictured because I wanted them to have the benefit of a cap iron and I thought that if they were going to look like a decent plane, they should have the benefit of having an attractive vintage iron rather than a slab of CNC cut steel as new irons are (not downing that necessarily, it just doesn't look right to me in this type plane).

For moulding planes and other small planes, I just cut irons out of O1 steel (with a hacksaw) and grind them to shape. If they need taper (like hollow and round irons), I put them in a jig and put a small taper on them using a belt sander.

I wish I could find lots of beech in good shape here! In Germany and continental europe, it seems plentiful. One state over from me, it's also plentiful, but there's no market for it quartersawn, so it's burned for firewood. The specialty wood places that have it don't think I buy enough at a time to respond to me (but I have enough now to make all of the planes I'll ever use).

There are a lot of parallels in razoring and plane making (and using). The idea that you can prep and maintain an edge and do something productive with it.

I'm always glad to hear of other people making planes!!