Thread: Can you "feel" progress when honing?

Originally Posted by 10Pups

Jack you got too many irons in the fire buddy. Just my humble opinion but you should try to hone your skills and be able to shave off an 8k,linen and then leather. If you can't do that you are adding to much to the mix and confusing yourself. Shooter makes it sound so easy but that feel you get on the hone has to translate to your face. If you just go through all the steps you won't know at which step you went off road. Just thinking out loud here but I hope it helps :<0)

I'm sure you are right. I tend to over-think stuff.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I have been exclusively using shapton gs's for several years now. I use chosera 1K, shapton gs 2,4,8,16, followed by a natural finisher. I make reference to my experience on these stones because if a person hasn't used them, they really don't have a clue about how fast they are.

You are starting to feel what is going on and you are dead on with your thoughts. Shapton's are faster than any other stone that I have had my hands on. When you feel the "gritty" feeling and it goes to a more smooth feeling, you are literally removing the rough scratches of the previous grit. For me, I will wait until I get that smooth feeling (you will notice the stone starts to pull the razor) and then go a few more passes each side (normally about 10x on the 4 & 8K) to ensure I have removed all of the previous scratch marks. On 16k I go to where both sides get that smooth feeling on BOTH sides, then go 2-4 more passes. Caution on the 16k as if you do too many strokes on it, it will easily overhone a edge. The edge will become too fragile to hold up to a shave and will break down.

Here is your answer on your 16K. You can't really go any set number of strokes for any razor, you have to learn to feel. Once you feel the razor smooth out and start "stick-sion" (where the razor literally starts to feel like it is somewhat sticking evenly on both sides), go 2-3 more strokes. Then your web and leather. I am not a fan of any pastes/sprays, but those are an opinion thing. I feel they mask what you have done on the stones.

You mention something about putting a 12K in the shapton mix & you have a 16K...don't. Something you need to know is that there isn't really much difference in the two in particle size, but they are of different material & feel different & remove material at a different rate. Remember the K.I.S.S. principle. Most of the time we recommend a person learn to get good shaves off of a progression up to 8K. This ensures you have a proper foundation, which includes learning the "feel" of your stones. Stick with one "flavor" of stone, don't put a naniwa 12k in the mix of a shapton gs progression...use either or at the end, but never in the middle.

It's too bad I didn't know you lived where you do, I was in Pensacola Beach for a week at the end of September/First of October. An hour with someone who knows your stones would take weeks off your learning curve. If you can find someone within driving distance who hones with Shapton GS's...go to them! Your knowledge base is right there, but just a little time with a mentor would solidify things for you.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

Here is your answer on your 16K. You can't really go any set number of strokes for any razor, you have to learn to feel. Once you feel the razor smooth out and start "stick-sion" (where the razor literally starts to feel like it is somewhat sticking evenly on both sides), go 2-3 more strokes. Then your web and leather. I am not a fan of any pastes/sprays, but those are an opinion thing. I feel they mask what you have done on the stones.

You mention something about putting a 12K in the shapton mix & you have a 16K...don't. Something you need to know is that there isn't really much difference in the two in particle size, but they are of different material & feel different & remove material at a different rate. Remember the K.I.S.S. principle. Most of the time we recommend a person learn to get good shaves off of a progression up to 8K. This ensures you have a proper foundation, which includes learning the "feel" of your stones. Stick with one "flavor" of stone, don't put a naniwa 12k in the mix of a shapton gs progression...use either or at the end, but never in the middle.

It's too bad I didn't know you lived where you do, I was in Pensacola Beach for a week at the end of September/First of October. An hour with someone who knows your stones would take weeks off your learning curve. If you can find someone within driving distance who hones with Shapton GS's...go to them! Your knowledge base is right there, but just a little time with a mentor would solidify things for you.

I would have gladly driven to Pensacola for an hour's time with you. I'm sure that would be invaluable experience. In lieu of that I can't describe how much info and help I get from these forums. Videos also are great. But they can't watch me and identify mistakes I'M making personally. I hate to keep mentioning knife sharpening because the technique is so much different but,,, there are some things that are about identical. The "feel" for example. While learning to sharpen knives I'd read where people talk about feeling certain things. You think you understand that but until you "feel" it for yourself you are still in the dark. I think (hope) I'm on the verge of getting really good results with razors. About 2 years ago I finished sharpening a knife and when I tested the edge it was so friggin sharp it was hard to believe I had sharpened it. I still remember that day because after that I have been able to get very similar results. That day was like I had jumped a huge ability hurdle. I believe the difference in a very sharp edge and the very, very sharp edge we strive for is only a small amount of difference. But that difference makes a world of difference overall. I did bounce back and forth from stone types when learning to sharpen knives. While I learned a little about different stone types I think it slowed down my overall ability. When I didn't get great results overnight I'd think "if I had THAT type stone "Joe" praised on the forum I could get better results. Truth is if I would have just continued working with whatever stones I already had (and saved some money) my results would have been better, faster. I don't KNOW that but I believe it. So I'm not going to buy any more strops or stones. I'm just going to keep working at it, believing my ability will improve. Six months ago I couldn't (or didn't) feel the razor edge like I do now. I eagerly await my hopeful improvement in the next six months.

Personal note: The only reason I started shaving with a straight razor is because I wanted to learn to hone straight razors. I've been OCD about sharpening for a few years and being able to hone a razor and then benefit from the effort was a challenge I wanted. This is why I post and ask questions as much about honing/stropping as I do about actual shaving. Turns out I'm now as eager to improve my shaving technique. I have even shaved twice a day just to get more experience or try a new pre-shave or soap or whatever.

Originally Posted by Jack0458

Personal note: The only reason I started shaving with a straight razor is because I wanted to learn to hone straight razors. I've been OCD about sharpening for a few years and being able to hone a razor and then benefit from the effort was a challenge I wanted. This is why I post and ask questions as much about honing/stropping as I do about actual shaving. Turns out I'm now as eager to improve my shaving technique. I have even shaved twice a day just to get more experience or try a new pre-shave or soap or whatever.

This sounds like me to a T. I got interested in sharpening pocket knives to a high level and started straight shaving to prove to myself that I really could bring an edge to that level. Establishing and maintaining edges at this level is what makes the whole thing so enjoyable to me.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

This sounds like me to a T. I got interested in sharpening pocket knives to a high level and started straight shaving to prove to myself that I really could bring an edge to that level. Establishing and maintaining edges at this level is what makes the whole thing so enjoyable to me.

Glad to hear I'm not alone. I was thinking my knife sharpening ability was going to help me with razors. Not so. Even though I understand the edge geometry and all that, the technique and method of honing razors is so different you have to start over establishing a technique. Also, the fragility of very thin blades and very low edge angles make them very susceptible to minor errors. The level of perfection on razors is much higher than that of most pocket or kitchen knives. Even though it's possible to get the edge of a pocket knife as sharp as a straight razor the higher edge angle makes them much more durable or less fragile. I'm enjoying the journey.

A few people have mentioned stropping after honing, i am by no means terribly good at honing, but i can refresh an edge reasonably successfully, i find that a well stropped post hone edge is similar to an edge that has been shaved with a few times and mellowed slightly, i find freshly honed unstropped edges a bit harsh usually.

Originally Posted by shooter74743

Fragile edge off a 16k
I have found that it will happen more with old blades like those from England, some middle aged blades like the German ones, and less on the newer blades like the current production blades. It's about hardness and if the steel can hold up to a very fine edge without literally breaking. Think about a file that you drop on a floor and it breaks...it's hard and can't handle that abuse. A 16K edge is pushing the limit on the microscopic fine edge that develops and continues to refine with each progression of a finer stone. What I call a overhoned/fragile edge is one that starts out great on a shave and falls to pieces before you can finish the shave. I did it more than once learning and still will shave with a razor that someone sends me to ensure that I haven't pushed the edge too far.

Lastly, I have learned something, but can't scientifically prove my theory...yet. A while back, Sham and I were talking about finishers, both synthetic and naturals. He was testing my shapton gs 30k. I was finding that I didn't really care for the stone as it would push a edge too far real quick and was wanting his feedback as he was my honing mentor. What I have concluded is that I feel (key word feel, I have not proven it) that a natural finished edge will hold up longer shaving than a synthetic edge. This is why I hone to 16K and then finish mostly on a yellow green escher. It is a faster way to finish a razor as it takes less time on the natural finisher too. Of course it's a theory, but it works for me every time on every razor that is of any quality. As far as the Zulu. I messed with it quite a bit when it was new & sold it. If I am going to do that many strokes on it, I prefer my Charnley Forrest on oil. I am not downing the ZG at all, it's a great find for the razor community...just not my cup of tea, but then again I have a really nice CF too.

What say ye DaveW, what is your experience with the Shapton GS's?

Thanks so much...

I will admit, I was unknowingly guilty of this. In my quest to get a nice polish and remove the scratch marks from the 8k, I likely spent too much time on 16k. I've had a few edges that passed all tests leaving the stones but then either broke down mid shave or failed right off the strop, leaving me scratching my head.

Is the overhoning a problem on lower grits as well? How about on naturals? The general thought on the ZG is 50+ on water only. Is it possible to over do it on the ZG?

I am now wondering if I need to spend more time on the 8k or introduce something like a 10k or 12k. I have a SG 10k that I bought by mistake and haven't even unwrapped yet.

I don't care for pastes or sprays and like the more mellow feel of the natural which is why I finish on the ZG. It's primarily a case of using what I have and I have the ZG.. I don't have a Thuri. I do have a Black Ark that so far is unexplored.

So to recap, I think I will try more time on the 8k, progressing through lighter strokes. Less time on the 16k if at all. Possibly add a 12k.

Originally Posted by MikekiM

Thanks so much...

I will admit, I was unknowingly guilty of this. In my quest to get a nice polish and remove the scratch marks from the 8k, I likely spent too much time on 16k. I've had a few edges that passed all tests leaving the stones but then either broke down mid shave or failed right off the strop, leaving me scratching my head.

Is the overhoning a problem on lower grits as well? How about on naturals? The general thought on the ZG is 50+ on water only. Is it possible to over do it on the ZG?

I am now wondering if I need to spend more time on the 8k or introduce something like a 10k or 12k. I have a SG 10k that I bought by mistake and haven't even unwrapped yet.

I don't care for pastes or sprays and like the more mellow feel of the natural which is why I finish on the ZG. It's primarily a case of using what I have and I have the ZG.. I don't have a Thuri. I do have a Black Ark that so far is unexplored.

So to recap, I think I will try more time on the 8k, progressing through lighter strokes. Less time on the 16k if at all. Possibly add a 12k.

I'm guessing (stress guessing) that the lower grits don't cause a problem like the 16k would regarding overhoning. The reason I "think" this is because what happens with the 4k for example is erased by the next stone of a finer grit.

The Naniwa 12k seems to be a very popular stone among the experienced. I have thought about getting it and not using the Shapton glass 16k. The reason I'm not doing that at the moment is I have vowed not to buy anything else until my ability is good enough to make a sensible decision. Lynn showed in a video going from the 1k (to set the bevel) and he progressed through the 16k with no negative comments about any of the Shapton glass stones. I don't know what is his favorite of course. Plus, in just about any skill the very experienced folks can get results from somewhat less capable tools. Beginners (me) have problems with the higher quality tools. So my thinking here is new tools won't help where ability is low. I'm speaking of myself, not you or anyone else.

Earlier today I took my "trouble" razor back to the 1k to reset the bevel then continued through 16k, webbing and leather strop. I took my time and forced myself not to hurry. I then shaved one half of my face. Then I used my "less-trouble" razor on the other side and they were very close in sharpness. This is encouraging but I can't put too much weight behind a one time thing. I'll see how the razors do for the next few days. I have to say I'm VERY happy with my Boker. It is still shaving good after several shaves and I only strop between shaves.

Please, if you do get another stone in the 12k range let us know what you think about it compared to the 16k Shapton glass.

I'd like to say something about the 16k Shapton glass stone and sharpening my knives. It does a great job of polishing the bevels on my knives. But, after the 16k I have a sharpness level of "x". The edge is very sharp but then I can use a ceramic stone (Spyderco Ultra-Fine) and the edge seems to have a sharper crispness it didn't have before. This I have done many times. In time I may try the UF stone for my razors. I haven't yet mainly because of the same reason I don't buy another stone. I do already have the UF stone so I know I will try it soon. Week or two maybe. I want to develop a better opinion of what I'm getting now before I change anything. If I always change tools or technique I never get an idea of what's what.

I think the Spyderco UF stone is rated at about 3 microns. The 16k Shapton glass is .92 microns I think. Shapton claims this. Spyderco has never claimed any micron level on their stones that I'm aware of. But the type of stone we use has a lot or more to do with the actual grit or micron level. This is another reason I choose not to change the stones I use for now. This goes for strops too.

Living and learning.

I've pondered this since posting earlier...

Sure, I can crack open the Shapton Glass 10k sitting on my shelf and wiggle it in between the 8k & 16k.

But as I think it through this would not solve anything. It would simply confuse the issue and rather than finessing the edge I would be beating it into a fragile submissive mess.

I remember sitting with a friend and honing mentor and being amazed when he did only a few strokes on his finishing stone.. a 12k SG. I've allowed myself to forget what he suggested and this thread has reminded me that less can be more.

Originally Posted by MikekiM

Thanks so much...

I will admit, I was unknowingly guilty of this. In my quest to get a nice polish and remove the scratch marks from the 8k, I likely spent too much time on 16k. I've had a few edges that passed all tests leaving the stones but then either broke down mid shave or failed right off the strop, leaving me scratching my head.

Is the overhoning a problem on lower grits as well? By my experience you really can't overhone until after 4KHow about on naturals? I don't really mess around that much with naturals as they aren't as efficient as synthetics IMOThe general thought on the ZG is 50+ on water only. Is it possible to over do it on the ZG? This question has a LOT of variables. First is the stone, second the honer, third is the steel composition and heat treat. On the ZG I had, it would have been really hard to overhone. Know, keep in mind that I used Smith's honing oil on mine most of the time.

I am now wondering if I need to spend more time on the 8k or introduce something like a 10k or 12k. I have a SG 10k that I bought by mistake and haven't even unwrapped yet.Stop. It's not the hones. For Shapton GS stones, you should go from 8 to 16K. Anything else is not going to benefit you at all. Remember, we typically recommend that a new honer stop at 8K and strop. If you consistently get good edges, you are ready to play around with finishers (stones over 8K).

I don't care for pastes or sprays and like the more mellow feel of the natural which is why I finish on the ZG. It's primarily a case of using what I have and I have the ZG.. I don't have a Thuri. I do have a Black Ark that so far is unexplored.

So to recap, I think I will try more time on the 8k, progressing through lighter strokes. Less time on the 16k if at all. Possibly add a 12k. How many times do I have to say a 12K will not benefit your honing progression?

Originally Posted by Jack0458

I'm guessing (stress guessing) that the lower grits don't cause a problem like the 16k would regarding overhoning. The reason I "think" this is because what happens with the 4k for example is erased by the next stone of a finer grit.

The Naniwa 12k seems to be a very popular stone among the experienced. Yes, it is the best affordable finisher madeI have thought about getting it and not using the Shapton glass 16k. It's slower and has a different feel, both on the stone and the face...but you can overhone with it easily too. IME the 12K doesn't give the feedback that the GS stones do. The reason I'm not doing that at the moment is I have vowed not to buy anything else until my ability is good enough to make a sensible decision. Lynn showed in a video going from the 1k (to set the bevel) and he progressed through the 16k with no negative comments about any of the Shapton glass stones. I don't know what is his favorite of course. Plus, in just about any skill the very experienced folks can get results from somewhat less capable tools. Beginners (me) have problems with the higher quality tools. So my thinking here is new tools won't help where ability is low. I'm speaking of myself, not you or anyone else.

Earlier today I took my "trouble" razor back to the 1k to reset the bevel then continued through 16k, webbing and leather strop. I took my time and forced myself not to hurry. I then shaved one half of my face. Then I used my "less-trouble" razor on the other side and they were very close in sharpness. This is encouraging but I can't put too much weight behind a one time thing. I'll see how the razors do for the next few days. I have to say I'm VERY happy with my Boker. It is still shaving good after several shaves and I only strop between shaves.

Please, if you do get another stone in the 12k range let us know what you think about it compared to the 16k Shapton glass.

I'd like to say something about the 16k Shapton glass stone and sharpening my knives. It does a great job of polishing the bevels on my knives. But, after the 16k I have a sharpness level of "x". The edge is very sharp but then I can use a ceramic stone (Spyderco Ultra-Fine) and the edge seems to have a sharper crispness it didn't have before. This I have done many times. In time I may try the UF stone for my razors. I haven't yet mainly because of the same reason I don't buy another stone. I do already have the UF stone so I know I will try it soon. Week or two maybe. I want to develop a better opinion of what I'm getting now before I change anything. If I always change tools or technique I never get an idea of what's what. To understand why most knives do not show improvement over 4K is getting into how the heat treat and composition of the steel in the knife. After 4K, you aren't sharpening any more anyways, you are polishing.

I think the Spyderco UF stone is rated at about 3 microns. The 16k Shapton glass is .92 microns I think. Shapton claims this. Spyderco has never claimed any micron level on their stones that I'm aware of. But the type of stone we use has a lot or more to do with the actual grit or micron level. This is another reason I choose not to change the stones I use for now. This goes for strops too.

Living and learning.

Originally Posted by MikekiM

I've pondered this since posting earlier...

Sure, I can crack open the Shapton Glass 10k sitting on my shelf and wiggle it in between the 8k & 16k. You can, but at your level of honing you will most likely overhone your razors. With straight razors, 8K to 16K is the proper next stone with shaptons. Go ahead and try it since you have it...but I told you so.

But as I think it through this would not solve anything. It would simply confuse the issue and rather than finessing the edge I would be beating it into a fragile submissive mess.

I remember sitting with a friend and honing mentor and being amazed when he did only a few strokes on his finishing stone.. a 12k SG. I've allowed myself to forget what he suggested and this thread has reminded me that less can be more. When it comes to Shapton GS stones you are so very right. They are the fastest cutting of the big three and you can get into trouble on the higher end quick.

I started with a hodgpodge of stones gathered up in different published grit ranges up to a Naniwa 12K. When my mentor agreed to teach me, he asked me what stones I had. He asked me if I could swing a set of Nortons or Naniwa's & I scraped up enough to get 1,4,8 in Naniwa superstones. My mentor lives in Kansas City & I was in Northeaster Texas. I would bevel set a couple razors and send them to him, he would evaluate, I would send video's of my honing and explain what I was doing and my though process's, and so on. It was a slow way, but it worked for me. I didn't try to pull 20 different guys "idea's or experience", I worked with one master. My journey was smooth and paced. You must learn to feel, that's the most important thing I can tell you guys...learn to feel. Listen to what experts have to say & apply it, don't muddy your honing journey with detours of other thoughts or inputs from other guys who are learning too. It's not hard to figure out who knows their stuff & who's an armchair quarterback if you do your research.