Thread: Going back to school

Looks like I will be visiting the videos again on honing. It seems the more I hone the worse I get. I started out with the videos and did fairly good. I cut the hanging hair just fine and would get a real good shave but now it seems I'm going in reverse. The lase 4 razors took the longest to where they would shave without tugging at the face. now they all gave a close shave but I could tell they were not as good as last years. Now I am honing a lot of different blades. Sense this is my hobby I've been buying off the bay and cleaning kind of restoring and honing then shaving with the razor a few times the selling it. I really don't care if I make money I just enjoy playing with these little toys. I wonder if you ever get where you don't need refresher courses. Now I know it's not the hones there the same ones I got good edges off of. I think I may need to invest in a microscope to ck the edges out in different stages of the game. I believe I saw one in a post here at the SRP that hooked up to the computer. That would be the one for me sense it seems the easiest. I was wondering just how many out there are like me and keep going back to the pro's videos. I for one am glad that they are there. So Thanks to the Pros and there videos.

I only watched one persons videos to start. There are many roads to the perfect edge, just don't try to follow them all at the same time. I found a person with a good reputation for honing that made video and I liked the presentation. I followed just that one. Since I have watched several others for an idea of what they do and how they do it. We all learn a little different so it is good to have more than one person presenting technique. I still do watch the videos and mostly when I am referencing them for a post. My edges vary a bit as well, not every razor passes the shave test every time, I am hitting over half though. There are to things that I had to realize. The first, which is the very most important is when the bevel is set. The second was to lay off the pressure when the bevel approaches. Once the bevel is set and I start to move up in the grits most of the work is done. I do believe that the loupe is good enough for me at this point. I'm just starting to feel like I am really understanding what I see in the loupe. For me the mantra is remember the basics.

Originally Posted by RezDog

I only watched one persons videos to start. There are many roads to the perfect edge, just don't try to follow them all at the same time. I found a person with a good reputation for honing that made video and I liked the presentation. I followed just that one. Since I have watched several others for an idea of what they do and how they do it. We all learn a little different so it is good to have more than one person presenting technique. I still do watch the videos and mostly when I am referencing them for a post. My edges vary a bit as well, not every razor passes the shave test every time, I am hitting over half though. There are to things that I had to realize. The first, which is the very most important is when the bevel is set. The second was to lay off the pressure when the bevel approaches. Once the bevel is set and I start to move up in the grits most of the work is done. I do believe that the loupe is good enough for me at this point. I'm just starting to feel like I am really understanding what I see in the loupe. For me the mantra is remember the basics.

Interesting comment - that's new to me and could explain a lot - the question is, learning when to start laying off the pressure, something I've never done.

I just kept looking at the bevel in the loupe till it looked right, then moved on to the strokes with just the weight of the blade. Could you explain a little more in terms of, "when the bevel approaches"?

It was meant more for when I am honing a blade that has been restored. In such a case there is a substantial amount more steel the gets removed because the entire bevel needs to be cut. So if you check with the loupe and watch the bevel starting to form you will be able to see when the apex is near completion by looking almost directly at the apex. There will be a full white line to begin. It will become more narrow as the completion approaches. When you are almost there you will see only pieces of the line left. They often show as sparkles in the end. When it is a very fine line and nearly an apex I stop using any pressure on the blade to prevent deep striations that can lead to chipping. Remember you are looking at or towards the apex not the bevel.

Really it is about pressure and the ability to read a bevel.

First we always say less or no pressure, but that is not true.

Iwasaki loosely translated… very loosely…

35 lbs of pressure to bevel set
3.5 lbs to polish
Weight of the blade to finish.

So if you are cutting a new full bevel where you are flattening the bevels, setting the correct angle and getting them to meet, you need some pressure or a lot of laps. Re-setting where the bevels are flat and in the correct plane/angle requires much less pressure.

As Shaun said, once you get the bevels to meet you are next going to polish the deep stria.

Start with the bevel setter, 1K. I joint the edge lightly to get a straight 1K edge then do 10 laps with just the weight of the blade to polish the deep 1k stria and get the bevels to meet the straight edge, they should come back together quickly.

On your polishers remove the previous stria with lite pressure, your edge will not really get straight until about 8k. From the side it will be ragged.

If you see deep stria, go back, one grit and remove it, sometimes high grit polishers will show deep low grit stria that is hidden in the stria.

I lightly joint the edge at each stone up to 8k and join the bevels to the straight edge.

If 8k is you finisher or whatever grit it is, do weight of the blade full strokes to refine the bevel and straighten the edge as much as possible.

The key is to be absolutely sure your bevel is meeting completely from heel to toe, before you progress from the bevel setting stone, otherwise it is hit and miss if you are actually polishing an edge. Sometimes you get lucky and the bevel comes together at a higher grit, next time it does not happen and you system… is not working.

The other thing to look at is chipping, that is caused by too much pressure on the stones, or stropping (most common) or bad steel.

Look at your edge before you strop, and after. If you see reflections, go back to your finishing stone to remove them. If you see them after, you are stropping with too much pressure.

The more you do and look at the bevels the easier it is to diagnose a problem.

You may be honing correctly and undoing it while stropping.

I watched Lynn again and again. I think I've been over doing it after the bevel is set. To many strokes with the higher grit stones. I re-honed the Fredrick Reynolds I just got and followed the video and got a lot better edge I think. I'll know more in a day or two when I shave. The Oak razor I just got now that one may be giving me a little more of a problem. It has a little bit of a smile to it and a lot thicker. I do believe it's a near wedge.. I don't know yet how it's going to shave but it feels good in my hand. I'll find out more in a couple of days. I do believe I will eventually get one of those micro scopes that hook to the computer. wish me luck.

The more strokes, the more chance of a miss stroke, which is even more strokes.

you see the principals of honing are very simple it is the brain to the hand and the situation between the hone and blade where it gets complicated

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Really it is about pressure and the ability to read a bevel.

First we always say less or no pressure, but that is not true.

Iwasaki loosely translated… very loosely…

35 lbs of pressure to bevel set
3.5 lbs to polish
Weight of the blade to finish.

So if you are cutting a new full bevel where you are flattening the bevels, setting the correct angle and getting them to meet, you need some pressure or a lot of laps. Re-setting where the bevels are flat and in the correct plane/angle requires much less pressure.

As Shaun said, once you get the bevels to meet you are next going to polish the deep stria.

Start with the bevel setter, 1K. I joint the edge lightly to get a straight 1K edge then do 10 laps with just the weight of the blade to polish the deep 1k stria and get the bevels to meet the straight edge, they should come back together quickly.

On your polishers remove the previous stria with lite pressure, your edge will not really get straight until about 8k. From the side it will be ragged.

If you see deep stria, go back, one grit and remove it, sometimes high grit polishers will show deep low grit stria that is hidden in the stria.

I lightly joint the edge at each stone up to 8k and join the bevels to the straight edge.

If 8k is you finisher or whatever grit it is, do weight of the blade full strokes to refine the bevel and straighten the edge as much as possible.

The key is to be absolutely sure your bevel is meeting completely from heel to toe, before you progress from the bevel setting stone, otherwise it is hit and miss if you are actually polishing an edge. Sometimes you get lucky and the bevel comes together at a higher grit, next time it does not happen and you system… is not working.

The other thing to look at is chipping, that is caused by too much pressure on the stones, or stropping (most common) or bad steel.

Look at your edge before you strop, and after. If you see reflections, go back to your finishing stone to remove them. If you see them after, you are stropping with too much pressure.

The more you do and look at the bevels the easier it is to diagnose a problem.

You may be honing correctly and undoing it while stropping.

Those pressures were for honing Kamisori. A normal straight doesn't need that much. The geometry of the Kamisori forces you to focus pressure on the edge.

Regular straights can take some pressure while bevel setting but I wouldn't actively push down trying to get "X" amount of pounds. You can feel the sweet spot in pressure where you are not just grinding steel away.

Funny I just got thru looking at the vids again too. I thought I had arrived, then extreme frustration last nite on a shoulderless Joseph Rodgers.

I had to stop, relax rethink, retry. Seems that lots of rough work getting out a tiny nick in a piece of extremely hard (Griffon Carbo Magnetic) for my son's birthday gift gave me a HEAVY HAND.
Without trying I was exerting enough pressure to bend that JR's shoulderless edge back like a wet noodle. Heck, the cutting edge was probably pointing back at me! Exageration but you get the point-the edge was off the stone.

After regrouping and the magic marker test, I put all my effort into weight of the razor only and yes the JR is shaving arm hair off the 1k. To 4k and beyond tonight...