Thread: Shaved without stropping after honing.

Originally Posted by tedh75

Just out of curiousity does anyone think if I did a poor job honing that I would have gotten a comfortable 4 pass shave?

I've never heard of a four pass shave. It's not much of a challenge to get a clean shave in four passes. A good razor does it with comfort and several days of growth in two passes.

I second the others' comments about the leather - short of objects residing in your strop (like specks of abrasive that would immediately be evident in shiny chips on the edge of a razor), there should never be a situation where leather doesn't improve the edge significantly.

Have the rest of us shaved right off of a stone? Sure, I did when I was a beginner, probably half a dozen times because I was told by woodworkers that stropping rounds an edge over and dulls it.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I've never heard of a four pass shave. It's not much of a challenge to get a clean shave in four passes. A good razor does it with comfort and several days of growth in two passes.

I second the others' comments about the leather - short of objects residing in your strop (like specks of abrasive that would immediately be evident in shiny chips on the edge of a razor), there should never be a situation where leather doesn't improve the edge significantly.

Have the rest of us shaved right off of a stone? Sure, I did when I was a beginner, probably half a dozen times because I was told by woodworkers that stropping rounds an edge over and dulls it.

Well my goodness if you've never heard of a four pass shave than I must be the only one in the world who has ever done one.

I see you have a lot of posts and have been on the forum for a few years, so it probably follows that you have more experience than I do. That being said, if you have never heard of anyone doing a four pass shave you haven't read many posts or don't retain the info because it doesn't line up with your opinions.

I understand that some people (some with a lot of knowledge, experience and well earned respect) believe that you should be able to a get a clean shave with two passes. I agree and I do perform a two pass shave when I want to speed things up a bit. It's a good shave, but not nearly as good as three or four pass shave for me.

However there are many members of this site who routinely perform three pass shaves. I will grant that the number of members who do more than three passes (or even more than four, imagine that) probably drops off dramatically.

I suppose you would tell Onimaru (4 passes), BobH(4 passes) riooso(4 passes) Steel(4 passes) or Chimensch(5 passes) that they don't know how to shave because they don't do it the way you do it. Here are some posts that mention 4 pass shaves and in one case a 5 pass shave. I could probably have tracked down more, but I've already wasted a lot of time that could have been spent shaving without stropping and doing more passes than are necessary. At the very least you won't be able to say you have never heard of a four pass shave anymore.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...ml#post1309609

http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...ml#post1353559

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...tml#post925029

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...ml#post1445865

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...tml#post554063



This isn't a sport (sorry Lynn, lol) and I am not in it to compete with you or anyone else(in regards to your "not much of a challenge" comment). I'm in it for the enjoyment and I do what works for me with the understanding that there is always room for learning and improvement.

I felt that the first part of your comment was a bit rude for someone who is in a hobby where YMMV is practically a mantra. Comments like that only serve to(and would appear to be intended to) make someone look or feel stupid.

If that isn't how you meant it(you would have a difficult time making me believe that) then please forgive me. I can accept constructive criticism, but I tend to get irritated when I feel that a comment that is directed at me could be paraphrased as: "only an imbecile would find it necessary to do a four pass shave" or "You shaved without stropping? There couldn't possibly be a reason for anyone to ever do that unless they were an a complete beginner or an idiot"

As far as leather always improving an edge remember that the next time you tell a newbie they probably rolled the edge of their razor through improper stropping. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant properly performed stropping will always improve an edge.

I case I haven't made it clear; I felt your comment was condescending.

Cheers!

That's fine if you did. I think you misinterpreted what I mean by not much of a challenge. I don't mean that being your skill as a shaver, I mean it is not much of a test of an edge. To give a razor four passes to do its work as a matter of assuring the edge is good is too low of a bar to set.

A well sharpened razor should do a serviceable shave with one pass and blade buffing and an exceptional shave in two passes. It is the refinement of linen and strop that is missing coming straight off of a stone that will make either of those either uncomfortable or with unacceptable results.

I make no statement about what other experienced shavers should or shouldn't do, we all moved away from our mothers for a reason. But my comment about it not being a good bar to set for an edge still stands. I think as you progress, you'll find that linen and leather at the very least are required, and with most good stones, you may find that an interim linen and leather, then a second finish on both again will yield an exceptional edge. And it will do so even with a marginal stone (yield a sharp and comfortable edge). Many of those marginal stones will be completely unacceptable straight off the stone, but with good technique with the linen and leather create a very good comfortable and sharp edge.

I'll copy a comment I made elsewhere a couple of weeks ago, that is that I don't see any reason to ever shave without stropping, because good leather will make a razor sharper and smoother (and better at shaving) every single time.

Thank you for the clarification. In the interest of being clear what I meant with my four pass shave comment was that normally the more passes someone does, the more chances for irritation they incur.

I was making the assertion that since I did four passes with little irritation from an unstropped blade I must have done a decent job honing it. I didn't mean "look what a great job I did! I got all the hairs and it only took me four passes!" I understand that you and others don't think that that necessarily follows and that is fair enough.

I do hope that some day I can get a BBS in less than four passes, but if I don't I won't hang my head in shame and sell all my gear. By the way I also do a four pass shave with my DX with superpro blades with little to no irritation. I don't imagine I'll be getting my razors sharper than that anytime soon. Also I stropped the two blades that I honed last night. Have I made it clear that I'm not advocating or considering shaving without stropping? I mainly just wanted to see what it felt like.

I look forward to reading the comment you mentioned.

If you shave for a while, you'll end up:
* not getting a blade sharper than feather's hi stainless (or as sharp). Nobody does
* getting a clean irritation-free shave in fewer passes

You should be able to get an indefinite number of passes and have no irritation, but a practical shave - to me, is two passes in 5 minutes. It's something I can do every day, better than I shaved before straight razors, with less irritation and the edge is the same every single day (as opposed to constantly thinking "is this edge getting worse, should I replace the razor, or can I save 40 cents and get another day out of it"?).

I guess we all come by this different ways, but one thing that I think it relevant more than not is how the razor works after it comes off the strop and not before. There is a reason for this, and it is that different stones step up more on the strop, so judging the edge off of the stone doesn't give an accurate picture of what an every day shave would be like. Namely, stones that cut shallow small grooves step up little on a strop and linen, and can give an acceptable shave off of a stone - if not optimal. Stones with larger duller particles often create a more organized wire edge, and benefit more from stropping. They could feel more dull off of the stone, but end up creating a better edge off of the strop.

You don't ever have to worry too much about other peoples' opinions, though. If you shave with 4 passes the rest of your life, and I shave with two, or even some days one, it should have no effect on whether you shave with 4 or 6 or 2 or 3.