Thread: "Sharpness" - is it a bevel issue?

Hello Gents,

I have started to stray into the world of honing. Dangerous I know.

I have a set of Naniwa Speciality stones. 1k, 5k, 8 and 12. Here is what I did today, and the results:

I took two similar razors. Ern Ator and Othello. Both pre-war round tip hollows with shoulderless profiles. The differences between the two are that the Ern is a professionally honed razor that up until very recently was shaving beautifully. The Othello came from Revisor, and I attempted to hone it unsucessfully on a coti.

Technique: Hones lapped with DMT (DMT previously broken in on steel bar). Elbow level with stones. Watched water lines.

With the Othello, I followed the progression of:
1K 40 circles each way plus 30 X strokes.
5K 20 circles each way with pressure, 20 each way without then 10 X strokes.
8K 14 x strokes
12K to finish.

With the othello I simply used the 12k.

I did use the thumb pad test after 1K, but tbh I did not notice a very significant grab. It wasn't "distinctive" as described in videos in the past.


Shave test:
I shaved first pass with the othello. Similarly to shaving with it in the past, my face felt patchy. It did not give me a clean first pass.
I finished up the other two passes with the Ator, which did well.
My face was more sore than usual - I guess a combination of a rough first pass and and just feeling the difference from a coti edge.

Impression
THe fact that my Ator shaved, suggested to me that the strokes I was performing were adequate.
The reason why my Othello did not shave is not clear to me. The most obvious reason to me is that I did not set a bevel properly?? And then all progression done after that was useless?

I hope I did a controlled enough experiment above to let someone cast some light!

Best wishes

I guess the one other thing to show you is the stones afterwards. All have the same darkness distribution. This is the 5K after use.

Each razor hones differently. You can't expect to do the same number of strokes and get the same results. Your Othello needs more work in setting the bevel.
As a general advise there is no set number of strokes needed to set the bevel, what is even more some razors, with grind issues mainly, will require different strokes than circles and x-strokes to set the bevel.

So first, if you are doing a comparison use the same stones otherwise it is not a comparison.

Second using a natural stone is more difficult than a synthetic stone, there is a large learning curve especially for Coticules.

Third, use magnification, so you can see if you are making progress. You need to see, if you are honing to the edge, ink the bevel. The TPT takes a while to calibrate, until then use your eyes. Your eyes and magnification will tell you a lot more that the TPT ever will, you cannot feel micro chipping with TPT.

You need a foolproof test, to ensure you have a fully set bevel, before you move on to higher grit stones.

Do use tape to protect the spine until you learn to hone. Read the first 4 threads in the honing forum, they are packed with good, solid honing tips.

As said there is not a formula for honing, you do what is needed. Kind of like driving, close your eyes, step on the gas count to 10 and turn right , count to 5 and turn left… probably not going to work out well.

It really is not that difficult, setting the bevel is key, after that it’s just polishing for comfort. Magnification and Pressure are also important, more of one less of the other.

Thank you.
Microscope is in the post to me - taken on board. I will get back with some pictures when that arrives. Appreciate the help.

I remember that when I started to drive it did feel like "painting by numbers!". I hope, like driving, it becomes natural to me without car crashes

Here is a great thread, on what to look for and what you are seeing when looking at a bevel and edge with magnification.

Being able to see is one thing, being able to interpret, what you are seeing is another.

Much of this hobby is the ability to identify problems, and then correct them.

Definitely sounds like a bevel that isn't set completely. Go back to your bevel setter. I use magnification to make sure the edge is straight and the bevel is consistently scratched for the hone I'm on. The best tricks I've learned is to look at the bevel in a strong light and run the reflection all the way from toe to heel, any inconsistencies will be readily apparent.

After you think you have the bevel set try shaving you arm dry at skin level, you should see and feel hair being cut. If that works now run the edge across your thumb nail, use light pressure, less than weight of the blade, if it consistently bites the whole way it's set. Now go back to the bevel setter and do a few finishing passes to repair any damage from testing then continue your progression.

If during the thumb nail test you feel and inconsistency in the way the edge bites it isn't set.

IMO setting the bevel set is an often under appreciated and misunderstood step in the process of honing. YOU CANNOT REFINE AN EDGE THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

Don't mean to pick on you, just see a bunch of posts similar to this one, " it's shiny but it don't shave good".

Bevel setting= edge creation
Everything after= edge refinement

also watch the water. Notice the difference between when it's set and isn't. The water will show things wrong with edge that you will miss under 10x, well at least for me. The edge shouldn't push the water, it should cut under it.

not at all.
I am here for a shaving education This forum got me to shave without irritation with a straight, and now I'm hoping we can manage honing too.
Thanks for the help that has been provided so far. That link on microscopy I missed when I was perusing the library for bevel setting.

Your learning curve, reduced to 25 mins here:
https://youtu.be/pP4cP-aY-Wk

... and another 30 mins after this, when you watch his vids on coticule honing. That's it, learning complete. With a bit of practice, you'll get it easily.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

Your learning curve, reduced to 25 mins here:
https://youtu.be/pP4cP-aY-Wk

... and another 30 mins after this, when you watch his vids on coticule honing. That's it, learning complete. With a bit of practice, you'll get it easily.

Interesting vid and I got as far as having to cause excess hone wear to correct a warped/twisted blade. If you realize your blade has a warp/twist why not just adjust you stroke to accommodate it and not cause any excess hone wear? A lot of my razors have warps/twists and I have never had to grind anything down to get them to shave, just used the proper stroke for the condition.

Bob