Thread: Jnat Progression

Hi guys, I'm just after a few tips and answers please.
I recently started doing a full progression on my Nakayama Maruka , putting aside all my synthetics apart from the Chosera 1K.
What I'm wondering now is: should I be applying pressure with the coarser Naguras .
So slight pressure with the Botan and less and less with the Tenjou,Mejiro, and say no pressure with the Koma / Tomo.
Or is it just no pressure full stop.
I'm also figuring out that I was doing to much work, giving me a nice edge that only lasted a few shaves.
Although some tough metals need more work.
Also under the scope I can see that the thicker slurries give an out of uniform look to the last fraction of the bevels cutting edge. Really thin, weak slurries keep the whole bevel looking nice and uniform.
I'm just waiting for my new Botan to arrive then I will have a complete set of soft, white Naguras.
I did buy a set of three Naguras but 2 of them were super hard (junk)
Any hints n tips accepted

Cheers.

When I am on a synthetic 1k and 4k, I start with some pressure on each (how much depends on the situation, of course), and end with no pressure on each. This way, I can work a bit more efficiently, but each hone takes the razor as far as that hone can. I do not use pressure after the 4k.

I would think the same would apply with nagura; on the lower grit ones, start with some pressure and work till you use no pressure, then go to the next and repeat.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

When I am on a synthetic 1k and 4k, I start with some pressure on each (how much depends on the situation, of course), and end with no pressure on each. This way, I can work a bit more efficiently, but each hone takes the razor as far as that hone can. I do not use pressure after the 4k.

I would think the same would apply with nagura; on the lower grit ones, start with some pressure and work till you use no pressure, then go to the next and repeat.

I cant do it lol.
It doesn't seem rite, unless some one definitely tells me 100% to use pressure on my jnat.
Plus I'm getting next level edges with no pressure, so if it aint broke, so to speak..
Thanks for your advise though.

The only reason to use pressure is to speed things up a bit. If you are happy without it, there's no need to use it. My main point was that if you are going to use pressure, you should still each step/stone with no pressure to get the most from that step/stone.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

The only reason to use pressure is to speed things up a bit. If you are happy without it, there's no need to use it. My main point was that if you are going to use pressure, you should still each step/stone with no pressure to get the most from that step/stone.

I've made some progress.
Problem being my edges seem amazing but only last a shave or two which lead me to think that I was overdoing it but now I know I've been underdoing it.
I should infact apply a little pressure with the Botan, leading to no pressure as you suggested.
Also I wasn't removing the 1k scratches. Reason being: After quite allot of work they still remained and my thinking was that this isn't synthetics so maybe I'm not supposed to totally remove the scratches with the Botan.
I now believe the reason the scratches remained was because my slurry is too weak. The reason behind that is that a professional told me to make a very weak slurry or it would not work, a very light mist they told me to form.
There is defiantly a lack of info out there or a lot of contrasting info regarding jnat usage.
Tonight ill try out all my new techniques and see where I end up . That's part of the fun I spose

What you describe is why I use a Naniwa Professional 1K and then 3K to set myself up for J-Nat use. I find it much easier to remove 3K scratches with Botan than the 1K scratches.

I too use some light pressure when starting out on Botan slurry, albeit VERY light pressure with just a slightly more robust slurry than usual. I would rather use two light slurrys than a slurry that is too thick, as you have found thick slurry causes problems.

Sometimes, on really hard steel I have to use more than one Botan slurry to remove the scratches from the 3K synthetic.

I have found that if I error on a J-Nat progression it's always that I have rushed and not done enough work at a particular level, I have never overhoned a J-Nat edge.
I have produced edges that were too keen for my liking, (tedious to shave with), usually from finishing on clear water on a very hard and fine stone.

It sounds like you are on the right track, some experimentation should be expected as these are natural stones and need to be sorted out.
Not all combinations of Nagura and Hozan will work the same and then you throw in the variable of different steel into the mix and you get more experimentation.

Gradually your experience and intuition will help you hone with more confidence.

Originally Posted by FranfC

What you describe is why I use a Naniwa Professional 1K and then 3K to set myself up for J-Nat use. I find it much easier to remove 3K scratches with Botan than the 1K scratches.

I too use some light pressure when starting out on Botan slurry, albeit VERY light pressure with just a slightly more robust slurry than usual. I would rather use two light slurrys than a slurry that is too thick, as you have found thick slurry causes problems.

Sometimes, on really hard steel I have to use more than one Botan slurry to remove the scratches from the 3K synthetic.

I have found that if I error on a J-Nat progression it's always that I have rushed and not done enough work at a particular level, I have never overhoned a J-Nat edge.
I have produced edges that were too keen for my liking, (tedious to shave with), usually from finishing on clear water on a very hard and fine stone.

It sounds like you are on the right track, some experimentation should be expected as these are natural stones and need to be sorted out.
Not all combinations of Nagura and Hozan will work the same and then you throw in the variable of different steel into the mix and you get more experimentation.

Gradually your experience and intuition will help you hone with more confidence.

Thanks for that.
I have a Shapton 4k or a Chosera 5k. I did try the 1 then 5k and went straight to Tenjou but it didn't work out so well.
I think my problem is the Botan, its super hard so im waiting for a soft one from Aframes .
Its just like the synthetics really, every day I come up with a new plan

For me I come off the shapton GS 2k and then go to botan and stop with mojiro then water only on the Honzan. But what you are describing sounds similar to why I went to jnat in the first place. Look at your edge again and if you can send a pic I could help. It sounds like you may have a foil/wire/sparkly edge that maybe falling apart over the course of a few shaves. Once I was able to keep from getting that foil/wire edge coming off my 2k it was easy sailing from there and consistent shaves.

Here is also something that could play a factor. If your bevel is almost there but not quite a well polished edge can mask the bevel issue for a few passes ore shaves before it manifests itself, because the polished edge will produce less cutting friction thus allowing for a smoother cut for a little bit.

But these are things that you will have to test out and diagnose your issue or let someone else have a look. Fresh eyes sometimes helps to see things that you could be missing.

Hard nagura doesn't necessarily mean bad nagura, they sometimes just need a little soaking on the side that you will be making slurry with.
This is where testing comes into play, no real way to know how your particular Botan behaves without testing, try wetting the surface and keeping it wet for 10 minuets or so before making your slurry.

You might try using your 1K, then 4K as a set-up for a full nagura progression on your Nakayama. I think you may find that a more effective progression.

Having good magnification to examine your edges will help you to understand just what is happening at the edge. My honing improved quite allot after I invested in a college level microscope that will mag. up to 100x.

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

For me I come off the shapton GS 2k and then go to botan and stop with mojiro then water only on the Honzan. But what you are describing sounds similar to why I went to jnat in the first place. Look at your edge again and if you can send a pic I could help. It sounds like you may have a foil/wire/sparkly edge that maybe falling apart over the course of a few shaves. Once I was able to keep from getting that foil/wire edge coming off my 2k it was easy sailing from there and consistent shaves.

Here is also something that could play a factor. If your bevel is almost there but not quite a well polished edge can mask the bevel issue for a few passes ore shaves before it manifests itself, because the polished edge will produce less cutting friction thus allowing for a smoother cut for a little bit.

But these are things that you will have to test out and diagnose your issue or let someone else have a look. Fresh eyes sometimes helps to see things that you could be missing.

I tried earlier today with the Botan using pressure, waste of time but another thing off my check list.
I will have a go with my Shapton 1k & 4K and then go Tenjou as its soft like chalk and removes scratches instantly , then Mejiro/Koma/Tomo see how that plays out.
I'll take pics along the way, if it dosnt work ill post them..
Thanks