Thread: My first honing attempts with photos

Originally Posted by Tack

First, "Am I using too much pressure so the edge is flexing?".. you should not be using ANY pressure. (Yes, there are times when varying degrees of pressure may be used, but this is not one of them - especially when first learning to hone.) You need only that minimal amount of pressure needed to keep the blade in full contact with the stone.

Second, you should try the Sharpie Test - mark the edge with a sharpie, give the blade half a dozen strokes on the stone, and take another look. This will tell you if you are getting to the very edge. It is possible that the razor was honed with tape but with the amount of work you have described, that bevel angle should be long gone.

I am also concerned with the 50X "before" picture.. it appears to show some sort of edge damage and possibly some sort of crud on the edge. If you have corrosion or physical damage, the blade needs some work on a coarser stone before finishing. While on that subject, there has been considerable variation in the fineness of the dragon's tongue stones reported & that might not be the best stone for a newcomer's first attempt at refreshing.

It is hard to say what's going on in your fourth hone 500X pic. Evaluating an edge under the microscope is very difficult since a seemingly minor difference in lighting can make a huge difference in what we think we are seeing. I'd suggest the sharpie test with no pressure and a fresh look. There are just too many unknown variables to deal with at this point so let's try to eliminate them one by one.

Don't get discouraged, it takes a little work and then, for most of us, there is that sudden "eureka" moment when everything works. Good luck.


rs, Tack

If you look at the photo after second hone attempt (light pressure, no slurry, just water), I think I did the right thing and fixed the edge, it looked similar to this all along the edge on both sides. Just my further attempts degraded the edge even further.

I will for sure try the sharpie and maybe have another look at 50x only in order to minimise the lighting variations..

Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm going to start with random thoughts.

First, what the heck is the "Dr" Matt coticule method?

Second, your microscope images can be extremely deceptive. Most critically, the angle of the light shining on the bevel is going to drastically alter your perception of that bevel.

Regarding the darker area of the bevel, I don't know if it is or is not the area that steel is being removed because, again, it depends on the angle of the light. Regardless, hone until the bevel is uniform and reflects light uniformly.

Finally, your 500x image is not a 500x image.

With drmatt method I am referring to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXHsETAasqc

video. Basically, no slurry, light pressure and running water.

To avoid the lighting variations, the only thing I can do right now is to try to control the ambient lighting and microscope location. Even if it's not perfect, it's always more or less the same. In the long term some kind of jig might do the trick to lock the microscope, light and blade to always be set exactly the same way.

JOB15, Maladroit and RusenBG

Good advice as well. I will for sure use the marker, 50x magnification as I don't have jewellers loupe and loooots of patience with light pressure and many laps.

I don't want to invest in more stones at the moment as I truly believe the problem is in the hand that holds the stone, not in the stone. For me it seems that I was just too heavy handed and impatient in my honing attempts.

Had I known that I need to learn to shave, strop and hone all at once...

Honestly I think if I looked at some of the razors that have been in my rotation with 500x I would be horrified since they have been heavily used for a long time. I looked at one at 200x and was shocked that the edge looked the way it did and shaved the way that it did. Usually once I have a razor honed to my standards I try not to look at it and only touch it up when it starts to lessen the quality of the shave. Looking at a razor under high magnification can show you all sorts of things that you don't want to see that might not even affect the shave. A pretty bevel doesn't necessarily mean a shave ready razor.

Originally Posted by elmoensio

JOB15, Maladroit and RusenBG

Good advice as well. I will for sure use the marker, 50x magnification as I don't have jewellers loupe and loooots of patience with light pressure and many laps.

I don't want to invest in more stones at the moment as I truly believe the problem is in the hand that holds the stone, not in the stone. For me it seems that I was just too heavy handed and impatient in my honing attempts.

Had I known that I need to learn to shave, strop and hone all at once...

I only use my naked eye and my microscope but I know what I'm looking for.
Unless its a tiny bevel you should be able to see whats going on with the naked eye whilst reflecting light on the bevel.

Originally Posted by elmoensio

I recognise the increased difficulty but that's fine. I don't mind starting from the most difficult thing first. Afterwards everything else feels easy, right

What makes TIs tricky? Is it the steel or forging process? This one is said to be C135 carbon steel.

The steel is hard and they can have geometry issues. Nothing insurmountable, but they can give you fits. My first razor that I attempted to hone was a TI. I finally relented to having a member near me hone it. I am glad I did it, because it came back with a really nice edge. If this is a new a TI there is nothing wrong with having it sent out for honing. I speak only from my own experience and I wish to save you the frustration. However, if you wish to continue working on it, please use tape if you are not doing so already. Another alternative is to by a less expensive vintage razor or some people have recommended a Gold Dollar to practice on. At any rate, I am not trying to discourage you, I wish luck and good shaves.

Welcome, you have just learned, it’s not as easy as watching a video.

Send the razor out for honing and learn to maintain it on a good synthetic finish stone. OR…

Read Coticule.be, Straight Razor Honing from the Sharpening Academy.

Your razor can be honed with a Coticule, but it is one of the most difficult way to learn to hone. Do buy a 60X lighted loup, ($2-5) and if you want to learn more, read The Beginers Guide to Honing, in the Library, and the first 3 threads in the Honing Forum.

Jumping in blind, never has good results, fortunately, all is not lost… It can be fixed.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Welcome, you have just learned, it’s not as easy as watching a video.

Send the razor out for honing and learn to maintain it on a good synthetic finish stone. OR…

Read Coticule.be, Straight Razor Honing from the Sharpening Academy.

Your razor can be honed with a Coticule, but it is one of the most difficult way to learn to hone. Do buy a 60X lighted loup, ($2-5) and if you want to learn more, read The Beginers Guide to Honing, in the Library, and the first 3 threads in the Honing Forum.

Jumping in blind, never has good results, fortunately, all is not lost… It can be fixed.

I read all those articles including the links and I have a question or two. In the part about maintaining it states that doing more strokes with a Coticule wont hurt the blade's edge at all unlike using one of those "vintage barber's hones". I heard that with barber's hones, you only use like 6-8 strokes and your done but I never heard of "over honing an edge" using a barber's hone and I believe it was referring to creating a burr.

So it this really possible to do, over hone with a barber's hone?

So say I do like 10-12 or so strokes, am I over honing and creating a burr on the edge?

Thx.

Ignorance is bliss sometimes. You know how I learned to hone? Trial and error. I rubbed a razor on a 4K hone until it felt sharp, then I rubbed it on an 8K hone until it felt sharp, then I tried to shave with it. Mostly the shave was rubbish, so I'd start again and repeat the process. Then one day the shave was pretty OK, so I just kept doing what I did to get that shave the rest progressed from there.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is don't overcomplicate things with magnification etc. I still to this day hone by feel and never look at a magnified edge, ever. I do have a microscope which I used for a bit because of the novelty, but I soon decided there are more important ways to spend my life than worrying about something I couldn't interpret down the eyepiece of a 'scope.

Bottom line, it should shave. Microscopes, loupes etc won't tell you that. Shaving tells you that.

Good luck!

James.

Well this thread is full of the best advice. Here's mine. To quote grumpy smurf, I hate microscopes!

Really they don't work for a new beginner. Point is, that you can never read how to hone, or how to shave. They are skills that needs practice.

It's really simple. When a old barbar had an apprentice, he didn't give him a microscope. He gave him a old razor an a well used hone.

Then he made him practice, an practice, an practice.

You will need to hone the same razor 50 times to get it right. An if you have different razors made of different steels, then it takes even longer.

If you want to be able to hone any razor coming you way you will need to do it 10.000 times.

It's not a number I made up, but modern studies of practice necessary to master a skill.

I know this isn't encouraging, but really it's more difficult to hone, then to shave.

You TI is a great razor. You mentioned it was new? If that's so, then it's steel is a lot like an Swedish Eskilstuna razor. You will find them in old flee markets or marskandiser shops in Norway. You should be able to buy one for 70 - 100kr. Use that to practice.

I would hone the TI from 1K and progress from there. I think the bevel is ruined.

But fear not, there are many solutions. We have a Nordic forum here on SRP. Perhaps a razor fellow is living near you?

Or you could send the knife to me an ill hone it fore you for free, if you pay the postage. I live in Denmark, so we are neighbours. :-)

You could send your hone with the razor an I could try it an give you some advices on how to use it. Naturals are different but I'm using many different ones daily. I think that you will need expert advice on your hone if you should get the most out of it.

An finally, we could setup a video link, FaceTime or Skype so you could see what I'm doing, ask questions an so on. If that could work for you, then send me a PM.