Thread: My first honing attempts with photos

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Welcome, you have just learned, it’s not as easy as watching a video.

Send the razor out for honing and learn to maintain it on a good synthetic finish stone. OR…

Read Coticule.be, Straight Razor Honing from the Sharpening Academy.

Your razor can be honed with a Coticule, but it is one of the most difficult way to learn to hone. Do buy a 60X lighted loup, ($2-5) and if you want to learn more, read The Beginers Guide to Honing, in the Library, and the first 3 threads in the Honing Forum.

Jumping in blind, never has good results, fortunately, all is not lost… It can be fixed.

I read all those articles including the links and I have a question or two. In the part about maintaining it states that doing more strokes with a Coticule wont hurt the blade's edge at all unlike using one of those "vintage barber's hones". I heard that with barber's hones, you only use like 6-8 strokes and your done but I never heard of "over honing an edge" using a barber's hone and I believe it was referring to creating a burr.

So it this really possible to do, over hone with a barber's hone?

So say I do like 10-12 or so strokes, am I over honing and creating a burr on the edge?

Thx.

First, "Am I using too much pressure so the edge is flexing?".. you should not be using ANY pressure. (Yes, there are times when varying degrees of pressure may be used, but this is not one of them - especially when first learning to hone.) You need only that minimal amount of pressure needed to keep the blade in full contact with the stone.

Second, you should try the Sharpie Test - mark the edge with a sharpie, give the blade half a dozen strokes on the stone, and take another look. This will tell you if you are getting to the very edge. It is possible that the razor was honed with tape but with the amount of work you have described, that bevel angle should be long gone.

I am also concerned with the 50X "before" picture.. it appears to show some sort of edge damage and possibly some sort of crud on the edge. If you have corrosion or physical damage, the blade needs some work on a coarser stone before finishing. While on that subject, there has been considerable variation in the fineness of the dragon's tongue stones reported & that might not be the best stone for a newcomer's first attempt at refreshing.

It is hard to say what's going on in your fourth hone 500X pic. Evaluating an edge under the microscope is very difficult since a seemingly minor difference in lighting can make a huge difference in what we think we are seeing. I'd suggest the sharpie test with no pressure and a fresh look. There are just too many unknown variables to deal with at this point so let's try to eliminate them one by one.

Don't get discouraged, it takes a little work and then, for most of us, there is that sudden "eureka" moment when everything works. Good luck.


rs, Tack

I'm going to start with random thoughts.

First, what the heck is the "Dr" Matt coticule method?

Second, your microscope images can be extremely deceptive. Most critically, the angle of the light shining on the bevel is going to drastically alter your perception of that bevel.

Regarding the darker area of the bevel, I don't know if it is or is not the area that steel is being removed because, again, it depends on the angle of the light. Regardless, hone until the bevel is uniform and reflects light uniformly.

Finally, your 500x image is not a 500x image.

From what I can see your not reaching the edge and even if you was it wouldn't really make a difference.
I think to learn how to hone you could do with the following:
1. A set of stones starting with a 1K to set a proper bevel on.
2. A black marker pen.
3.This forum + Practice.
Keep it up , you will get there

I think most honers would agree that an edge is best examined during honing with a small hand lens of say 10X magnification, similar to what a jeweller or geologist would use. Higher magnifications from USB microscopes give hard-to-interpret images which, as Utopian and Tack point out, are very subject to variations in lighting.

Using a lower power lens gives a consistent method of examining an edge and observing the effect of each honing stage.

I also think that youre not reaching the edge . Maybe youre using pasted strop .Tape it and see how the scratches will go . The best way is hone on a midle grit stone and finish the razor . Forget abbout numbers and ect . Light to no prsure , more laps if needed . You will know when you are ready on this stone . its instinctive thing .
Shave is a better test than a microscope pics , they could be desceving .

Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm going to start with random thoughts.

First, what the heck is the "Dr" Matt coticule method?

Second, your microscope images can be extremely deceptive. Most critically, the angle of the light shining on the bevel is going to drastically alter your perception of that bevel.

Regarding the darker area of the bevel, I don't know if it is or is not the area that steel is being removed because, again, it depends on the angle of the light. Regardless, hone until the bevel is uniform and reflects light uniformly.

Finally, your 500x image is not a 500x image.

With drmatt method I am referring to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXHsETAasqc

video. Basically, no slurry, light pressure and running water.

To avoid the lighting variations, the only thing I can do right now is to try to control the ambient lighting and microscope location. Even if it's not perfect, it's always more or less the same. In the long term some kind of jig might do the trick to lock the microscope, light and blade to always be set exactly the same way.

Originally Posted by Tack

First, "Am I using too much pressure so the edge is flexing?".. you should not be using ANY pressure. (Yes, there are times when varying degrees of pressure may be used, but this is not one of them - especially when first learning to hone.) You need only that minimal amount of pressure needed to keep the blade in full contact with the stone.

Second, you should try the Sharpie Test - mark the edge with a sharpie, give the blade half a dozen strokes on the stone, and take another look. This will tell you if you are getting to the very edge. It is possible that the razor was honed with tape but with the amount of work you have described, that bevel angle should be long gone.

I am also concerned with the 50X "before" picture.. it appears to show some sort of edge damage and possibly some sort of crud on the edge. If you have corrosion or physical damage, the blade needs some work on a coarser stone before finishing. While on that subject, there has been considerable variation in the fineness of the dragon's tongue stones reported & that might not be the best stone for a newcomer's first attempt at refreshing.

It is hard to say what's going on in your fourth hone 500X pic. Evaluating an edge under the microscope is very difficult since a seemingly minor difference in lighting can make a huge difference in what we think we are seeing. I'd suggest the sharpie test with no pressure and a fresh look. There are just too many unknown variables to deal with at this point so let's try to eliminate them one by one.

Don't get discouraged, it takes a little work and then, for most of us, there is that sudden "eureka" moment when everything works. Good luck.


rs, Tack

If you look at the photo after second hone attempt (light pressure, no slurry, just water), I think I did the right thing and fixed the edge, it looked similar to this all along the edge on both sides. Just my further attempts degraded the edge even further.

I will for sure try the sharpie and maybe have another look at 50x only in order to minimise the lighting variations..

Well this thread is full of the best advice. Here's mine. To quote grumpy smurf, I hate microscopes!

Really they don't work for a new beginner. Point is, that you can never read how to hone, or how to shave. They are skills that needs practice.

It's really simple. When a old barbar had an apprentice, he didn't give him a microscope. He gave him a old razor an a well used hone.

Then he made him practice, an practice, an practice.

You will need to hone the same razor 50 times to get it right. An if you have different razors made of different steels, then it takes even longer.

If you want to be able to hone any razor coming you way you will need to do it 10.000 times.

It's not a number I made up, but modern studies of practice necessary to master a skill.

I know this isn't encouraging, but really it's more difficult to hone, then to shave.

You TI is a great razor. You mentioned it was new? If that's so, then it's steel is a lot like an Swedish Eskilstuna razor. You will find them in old flee markets or marskandiser shops in Norway. You should be able to buy one for 70 - 100kr. Use that to practice.

I would hone the TI from 1K and progress from there. I think the bevel is ruined.

But fear not, there are many solutions. We have a Nordic forum here on SRP. Perhaps a razor fellow is living near you?

Or you could send the knife to me an ill hone it fore you for free, if you pay the postage. I live in Denmark, so we are neighbours. :-)

You could send your hone with the razor an I could try it an give you some advices on how to use it. Naturals are different but I'm using many different ones daily. I think that you will need expert advice on your hone if you should get the most out of it.

An finally, we could setup a video link, FaceTime or Skype so you could see what I'm doing, ask questions an so on. If that could work for you, then send me a PM.

Just to throw in my 2¢, though it may not be worth even that.

In all your pics, you are not getting to the very apex of the edge in your honing attempts. But don't be discouraged, this is something that is going to take some time. And at first, as with just about anyone beginning honing, pressure is going to be the issue. And the question that will constantly be popping up is "Well, how much pressure?" And there really is no good answer, since, if you stick with it, 9 months from now the answer will be different from now solely based on the experience you will receive over that time when you start to get good shaves, and seeing what works. An experienced honer learns how to manipulate the variables at hand: razor, hone, pressure, amount of water, amount of slurry, and in some cases slurry breakdown (jnat). So there is an art in the science of honing.

So let's start with step one, the bevel set. From what I see it needs some work. Do you have a 1k bevel setter at all or only the dragon's tongue? If the bevel is not set, any after work will be nullified and useless. And when I say bevel set I mean having an even stria or scratch pattern all the way to the edge without seeing any visible bright line at the apex that differs from the rest of the bevel. But at first let's not worry about the microscope for now. Though it can be helpful, unless you know what you are seeing, it will distract from the goal of a good edge. First use your scope as a visual aid. Only use it to see if you have any chips, and to see how each step progresses. But mainly use other sharpness test to evaluate your progression. what I do when I need to be sure the bevel is set is to do a breadknife with no pressure to kill the edge and work from there. I stay on my bevel setter until it pops hairs off my arm at skin level without any effort all across the edge. At that point I don't worry about it and start to progress but only until then, and of course i look at the edge to make sure I don't have any chips.

I'm a jnat user and have not tried any of the one stone methods so I cannot give you any advise there. But I would focus on keeping you hone stroke consistent every time and keeping at light to no pressure. Maybe no more than 50 to 75 grams of pressure at most if you want a number to aim for. This will help you get some even scratch patterns, because in your after hone pics some of your scratches are too deep in comparison to your other scratches, which is a sign of too much pressure and inconsistent scratches or large grit particles, but because you are new lets go with pressure.

Hope this helps any.

God Bless,
Neil