Thread: Improper bevel development

As a side note - for this razor I really like a natural thinner(2") stone. My coticule really seems to take to this razor.

For that reason I am going to order a belgian blue from Howard. I think using that and the yellow will be a great combo for these razors.

Congratulations on your first shave with a razor that you honed yourself! I was worried that you had become frusterated and given up. I am also glad that you found that light pressure is one of the keys to achieving a sharp edge, because this allows the very tip of the edge to contact the hone as opposed to bending over with pressure. I try to only use the minimum amount of pressure to keep the razor perfectly flat on the hone throughout the stroke which I would estimate is less than a pound. The weight of the razor is enough in many cases.

In my experience it only gets better from here on out. For some reason the first razor puts up a big fight, then it is much easier after that; maybe because of your increased confidence and/or better technique. If you are starting a new Wipienica I would recommend doing a 10-10 pyramid on the Norton, followed by 10-20 passes on the wet coticule, followed by 10-20 passes on the chromium oxide with your light touch. After you strop the razor you should be pretty close. Let us know how it goes.

Originally Posted by silver2k

As a side note - for this razor I really like a natural thinner(2") stone. My coticule really seems to take to this razor.

For that reason I am going to order a belgian blue from Howard. I think using that and the yellow will be a great combo for these razors.

I have also found that 2 inch stones are easier to use in most cases (and cheaper too). The belgian blue/yellow combo is very good, especially when they are used after setting a bevel on the 4K side of a Norton. Just be warned that the belgian stones cut much slower than the Norton which is not necessarily a bad thing; it just means that you will need to take more time on the hones. If you are going to be spending a lot of time on these hones I would highly recommend purchasing a cotigura stone from Howard ($18) so that you can generate an abrasive slurry. This will allow these stones to cut MUCH faster than they normally would. JoshEarl is very well experienced honer on this forum, and has recently been using the belgian blue/yellow combination with great success. If I were you I would send him a pm to see if he has any tips on how to best use these stones.

Funny you should mention me--I've been exchanging PMs with Bruno on how to get the most out of the coticule. He has put in a lot of hours on these things and really knows his stuff. So I'm not an expert. (Maybe some day... )

Right now I'm using the Belgian blue and yellow coticule instead of my Nortons, mainly because they are less messy. I also like smaller hones; I have 1.5" wide hones and I just bought a 6x2" coticule from mparker762. I don't plan to get anything larger.

There seem to be two different approaches to using coticules--as workhorse hones and as finishing hones. As a workhorse hone, you can use the yellow with slurry and pressure to quickly polish a 1K bevel. You need the cotigura stone to build the slurry. (I honed a wedge in about an hour the other night, using the coticule to polish out the low-grit scratches.) I polish until the big scratches are gone, which leaves a smooth but dull edge. (The coticule slurry seems to leave a pretty dull edge for me.)

Then I build a slurry on the blue hone and do a few dozen laps with light, even pressure, which seems to put some microserrations on the blade. It pops hairs like crazy at this point, almost like the 8K Norton. Note that I'm using 1.5x4" stones, so if your hone is bigger you can decrease the number of strokes.

After this, I do 10 to 20 laps on the yellow *without slurry* to polish the edge. This leaves a pretty nice edge, but it doesn't do well on the hanging hair test. Even the best coticule edges perform poorly on this test, I'm finding.

The other approach is using the coticule without slurry as a final polishing step following the 8K Norton. For this you only need to do five to 10 light strokes. This is how most guys seem to use the coticule.

For me, the slowness of the hones is an asset. If you use the right progression, "slower" hones aren't really that slow, and they give you more control over how the edge develops.

Special thanks to Bruno--a lot of this stuff comes from his experience.

Good luck,
Josh

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Funny you should mention me--I've been exchanging PMs with Bruno on how to get the most out of the coticule. He has put in a lot of hours on these things and really knows his stuff. So I'm not an expert. (Maybe some day... )

Right now I'm using the Belgian blue and yellow coticule instead of my Nortons, mainly because they are less messy. I also like smaller hones; I have 1.5" wide hones and I just bought a 6x2" coticule from mparker762. I don't plan to get anything larger.

There seem to be two different approaches to using coticules--as workhorse hones and as finishing hones. As a workhorse hone, you can use the yellow with slurry and pressure to quickly polish a 1K bevel. You need the cotigura stone to build the slurry. (I honed a wedge in about an hour the other night, using the coticule to polish out the low-grit scratches.) I polish until the big scratches are gone, which leaves a smooth but dull edge. (The coticule slurry seems to leave a pretty dull edge for me.)

Then I build a slurry on the blue hone and do a few dozen laps with light, even pressure, which seems to put some microserrations on the blade. It pops hairs like crazy at this point, almost like the 8K Norton. Note that I'm using 1.5x4" stones, so if your hone is bigger you can decrease the number of strokes.

After this, I do 10 to 20 laps on the yellow *without slurry* to polish the edge. This leaves a pretty nice edge, but it doesn't do well on the hanging hair test. Even the best coticule edges perform poorly on this test, I'm finding.

The other approach is using the coticule without slurry as a final polishing step following the 8K Norton. For this you only need to do five to 10 light strokes. This is how most guys seem to use the coticule.

For me, the slowness of the hones is an asset. If you use the right progression, "slower" hones aren't really that slow, and they give you more control over how the edge develops.

Special thanks to Bruno--a lot of this stuff comes from his experience.

Good luck,
Josh

So you use the yellow coticule with a slurry to do the heavy cutting work before moving to the blue belgian then move back to the yellow for the final polishing? That is very interesting because the yellow is rated at a higher grit rating; however, I also remember reading that they have a higher concentration of garnets than the blue. Do you find that the yellow with a slurry cuts quicker than the blue with a slurry?

My approach is a little different than yours in that I like to come off the Norton 4K with a good bevel. I then move to the blue belgian with a slurry, then go to the yellow with a slurry, then finish on the yellow without a slurry. Sometimes I will go to the chromium oxide or diamond paste after this. This progression has given me good results; however, I find that I like using the Norton 4K/8K to get a good edge then just using the yellow coticule without a slurry for the final polish. This is much quicker for me than using the blue.

I've been surprised how quickly you can cut metal with the yellow coticule. In the video by LX_Emergency, he sharpens an eBay razor with just the coticule. That got me thinking... Then my conversation with Bruno confirmed it.

The yellow slurry seems to cut much faster than the blue; the slurry from the coticule gets black very quickly if you use a little pressure. But the resulting edge is too polished--it's dull, for some reason. Then I go back to the blue to take some of the polish off the edge. It's counter intuitive, but so far I've been happy with the results.

Both of the approaches you describe should work well; it's just a different way to get the same result. The blue Belgian seems to give a similar edge to my medium barber hone, which seems to be between the 4K and the 8K, so your progression is quite logical.

My goal right now is downsizing my hone collection and simplifying my process. I find myself bouncing around among my Belgians, Nortons and barber hones, and my life feels cluttered. But using the Norton in the progression would probably speed things up a bit.

I'm still experimenting; I'm seeing how long I can go without breaking out the Nortons.

Josh

Josh:
I think that since I am comming off the Norton 4K (instead of the 1K like you) I can go straight to the blue with a slurry then the yellow coticule to finish. It seems like you are using the yellow with slurry to cut the bevel, while I am using the 4K to cut the bevel. What are your thoughts about using the 4K to do the heavy cutting instead of the yellow coticule with slurry? In my experience the Norton cuts MUCH faster than the yellow even with a slurry.

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

The yellow slurry seems to cut much faster than the blue; the slurry from the coticule gets black very quickly if you use a little pressure. But the resulting edge is too polished--it's dull, for some reason. Then I go back to the blue to take some of the polish off the edge. It's counter intuitive, but so far I've been happy with the results.

I definitely concur with your findings about the versatility of the yellow, and how with a good slurry you can go straight to the belgians after the 1K. But I just go blue w/slurry, yellow w/slurry, yellow without.

What I'm still not totally clear on what going back to the blue does in your sequence. 'Take some of the polish off' – does this mean give the edge some teeth? But then going back to the yellow-without-slurry polishes it again, no? I wonder if this is sort of like the pyramid effect on the Nortons. I remember X speculating way way back that a great edge might be a mixture of toothiness and smoothness, and that the pyramid – beyond its function of preventing wire edges – might help to produce this kind of edge.

I'll have to give it a try. I also wonder what would happen Josh if you just cut the blue out of your sequence – yellow w/generous slurry, yellow without.

Originally Posted by dylandog

I definitely concur with your findings about the versatility of the yellow, and how with a good slurry you can go straight to the belgians after the 1K. But I just go blue w/slurry, yellow w/slurry, yellow without.

What I'm still not totally clear on what going back to the blue does in your sequence. 'Take some of the polish off' – does this mean give the edge some teeth? But then going back to the yellow-without-slurry polishes it again, no? I wonder if this is sort of like the pyramid effect on the Nortons. I remember X speculating way way back that a great edge might be a mixture of toothiness and smoothness, and that the pyramid – beyond its function of preventing wire edges – might help to produce this kind of edge.

I'll have to give it a try. I also wonder what would happen Josh if you just cut the blue out of your sequence – yellow w/generous slurry, yellow without.

From what I read, I don't think that Josh goes back to the yellow with the slurry after the blue. He goes from the blue to the yellow without slurry for 10-20 passes.

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

From what I read, I don't think that Josh goes back to the yellow with the slurry after the blue. He goes from the blue to the yellow without slurry for 10-20 passes.

I'm reading his sequence as:

1. yellow w/slurry
2. blue w/slurry
3. yellow w/out slurry

Maybe we're saying the same thing but talking past one another.

It's the yellow-blue-yellow sequence that's odd to me; while totally trusting Josh's experience over mine, I'm curious about how this works.