Thread: Challenging the honing taboos

Jordan,

For a long time, I honed standing up, too. I found sitting down like Lynn does in his video let me see what I was doing a lot better. Plus you can raise your elbow up, which makes a nice, even stroke much easier to do. My honing improved a lot when I copied Lynn's posture.

Just a thought.

Josh

Thanks guys, this is what I'm looking to hear. And with two replies I've already picked up a tip: X pattern on the Nortons are not de rigeur, but what I have been doing recently needs to be refined. I was going striaght down the hone with the blade perpedicular. Josh recommends heel leading toe. That makes sense to me in an intuitive sort of way.

Keep 'em coming guys. Oh, and any comments on that video (item 3)? Ich weiss nicht!

Not so long ago I overhoned my Friodur. Backhoning did not do the job, a coarser hone neither. What really did the trick is stropping it a couple of strokes with the spine lifted a few millimeters (about 1/8") off the leather followed by 10-20 passes on an Escher.

Stropping with the spine off the leather also works well on a razor that needs honing again (adds one or two shaves worth to the bevel).

Originally Posted by Kees

Not so long ago I overhoned my Friodur. Backhoning did not do the job, a coarser hone neither. What really did the trick is stropping it a couple of strokes with the spine lifted a few millimeters (about 1/8") off the leather followed by 10-20 passes on an Escher.

Stropping with the spine off the leather also works well on a razor that needs honing again (adds one or two shaves worth to the bevel).

Or just slacken the strop

PuFF

Back honing is a very usefull adition to the process. Circular honing works well also. Time and practice gets you to the point where you can distinguish what works for "YOU". With all info passed on in this forum, it is not a rule but advise. You will find what you can do and apply ideas from here and elsewhere to achieve your goal. S....t learning is great

PuFF

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Jordan,

For a long time, I honed standing up, too. I found sitting down like Lynn does in his video let me see what I was doing a lot better. Plus you can raise your elbow up, which makes a nice, even stroke much easier to do. My honing improved a lot when I copied Lynn's posture.

Just a thought.

Josh

Yup, I wanted to try that, but unfortunately, I don't really have a set up to put the hone at the right height for my arm to move correctly - coffee table is too low, dining room table is too high, etc.

I modeled my current technique after what Bill Ellis did on his CD and its working reasonably well for me at this point. I should say that Bill mentions in the video that he often hones while watching TV, so he may sit sometimes as well.

This is good info and I'm interested in reading more about how others work.

Jordan

1. One handed honing and ambidexterous shaving are both un-natural to start with but each can be learned with sufficent practice. I agree that using only one hand to hone on a coarse piece of sandpaper can be a challange and that maintaining a uniform pressure is also difficult but it can be done. This is not to say that that usng two hands is wrong. The difficulty that I encountered with it was maintaining a constant pressure during the stroke. I suppose that with sufficent practice it can be done. Just learn one way and learn it well.

2. The X pattern is a stroke that will work with the most razors, that is it's advantage. The straight across stroke is fine if your edge is straight but if your edge has any sort of a "smile" to it or the least bit of warping then the X pattern stroke is mandatory. Either that or you have to compensate with Xmans rolling stroke. Using the X pattern does have its drawback. It results in uneven wear that must be compensated for at some time. The Barbers manual in the help files tells how to do this.

3. Back honing has always been controversial. Simply regard it as a tool in your tool box. Experiment with it and you will find its uses. Its general use has been to remove a wire edge but it does not always work. It really depends upon how severly overhoned the edge is. Use the least aggressive method possible to resolve any issue.

4.The Pyramid system is not the be all/end all of hoing. It is simply a structured approach to honing for new guys that will get their edge shaving sharp eventually.
Eventually most of us change to different methods that work faster. What allows us to do that is we learn what to look for in an edge at various stages of honing.

5. Pressure is a real tough thing to describe to someone else. Usually I say to use 1-2 lbs of pressure. Whenever I do then I can just imagine their response! WTF &^%%$#@!** is 1-2 lbs of pressure!

Pressure is necessary when using the 1K, we are removing steel! But we do not want to bend the edge in the process. I also use pressure on the 4K for the first 25 laps but always finish using only the amount of pressure necessary to keep the razor flat on the hone. On the 8K I will occasionally use a bit of pressure initially depending upon the feel.

6. Torque. We say to keep the blade flat on the hone. Both the spine and the edge with an even amount of pressure on both. Wel... on some blades that just does not work. Occasionall I will apply some torque, that is I will have ever so slightly more pressure on the edge then I do on the spine. If that does not work then I know that I have a poorly developed bevel or a warping of the blade or edge.

7. Finishing... there are many tools that can be used to finish an edge. What is boils down to is what you like in an edge. Try as many as you can.

8. Someone once compared a razor to a woman. I really do agree and suggest that you try as many as possible!

Have fun!

I think your doing great with your thoughts. All good comments here. Your accepted wisdoms include a few bad assumptions. I don't really have anything important to add except that doing an x pattern, regardless of when or why is still doing an x pattern. You can correct all kinds of ineffective straight honing with a few passes with an x pattern. The most effective use of an x is with high grit to achieve maximum sharpness, which is exactly what your doing. Well, thats what I think anyway. Don't make it an accepted wisdom though.

I don't want to disagree with Randy but I don't think back honing is controversial. A few people don't like it, but that doesn't make it controversial, merely that some people don't like it. It is a documented form of honing, that in itself makes it more important than any controversy, and besides, as you've noted, it works. You can always rely on what works just as well as anything else.

Don't rely too much on watching someone hone. That isn't very helpful. You have no idea what he is doing, feeling, or whatever. In the video your describing I'm certain the words that would go along with it, given any interest in talking while "honing" would be:

"Now I am making a bevel on this razor, clearly only an idiot would try and sharpen a razor like this, but again, I'm only making a bevel and sharpness is unimportant, some poor sap will buy this thing and think it should be able to shave and be "razor" sharp. What an idiot! I have to create a bevel on 30 more razors like this today then I can finally go home to the madam of the house"

Howdy,

I'm not sure there really are any taboos other than those activities that do cause uneven pressure, too much pressure or an uneven stroke when honing.

Most of the recommended techniques really are aimed at helping new people get successful as soon as possible. It is all a learning process and I still learn new things every day.

Taping for the most part is unecessary unless you have a damaged edge to repair or are protecting a damascus like finish on the spine. Wapienica razors typically are super easy to hone up with just a few strokes, so flattening of the spine would indicate way too many strokes. This is not bad though as these are great razors to learn on and for the cost you have a great razor to start on that will take a great edge, yet can definitely be replaced without breaking either your heart or pocket book.

I really like the striation and cutting edge that I get from the X pattern, but there are a lot of people who simply hone straight down a 3 inch stone.

Backhoning is another approach and obviously works well with pastes on flatbed leather hones and pasted strops. I simply find a couple regular 1-3's will usually solve an over honed razor. Every razor is a new challenge and the more alternative techniques you have the more successful you will be. You will also become more successful the more you successfully hone razors. This may sound a little silly, but practice does help a lot. You don't have to hone thousands of razors to get a razor sharp, but there are different degrees of sharp as well.

Still not a HHT fan as shaving tells me what I need to know when honing. Nuff said. Others rely on it and thumbnail tests, etc.

If you feel comfy with two hands, then that will work for you. Nothing written in granite. What you are looking for is a nice fluid stroke where the blade remains flat on the stone throughout the stroke. This stroke is developed. It doesn't just happen, even for people who have done a lot of knife sharpening. The razors edge is delicate and any additional pressure or uneveness thoughout the stroke will show in the results.

I still feel that less strokes are better. The more strokes, the more wear.

Every razor is different. We are all different with different levels of tactile ability, touch and feel. We should always be open to new techniques and sharpening media.

The main thing is to enjoy honing and enjoy straight razor shaving. If you find it getting frustrated, don'e stay at it for hours. Come back to it after a rest and enjoy the great art that you have learned and are learning.

Lynn

I thought I'd just mention that pressure or following guidelines as to how much weight to use when honing varies for me with the balde size and weight. Where i'd never use significant pressure with a full hollow I will when working on an old and very blunt wedge.
I've also sat hones on my left hand or on my thigh while using them.

The penny dropped, so to speak, for me and honing when someone stood behind me and physically guided my hands when I was a child. For ages before that I'd struggled to put a decent edge on a knife or tool.