Improper bevel development

[silver2k]

Hello,

I am having trouble developing a bevel on a new Wapienica razor. This is my first experience honing. I picked up a few Wapienica razors to learn to hone on(at $8 I can burn through a few and its not a big deal.)

My equipment:
5/8 Wapienica razor
Norton 220/1000
Norton 4000/8000
Norton Flattening stone(lapped both nortons with this using the pencil grid method before I took a razor to them)
Tony Miller bench strop 1 micron diamond/chromium oxide

I started with the 4k/8k and a fresh razor. First time to the hone. I tried a pyramid of 15/15 down to 1/5 and that didn't do much. But then again this was my first time on the hone.

I tried it again to little avail.

Then my 220/1k came in the mail. I figured I probably overhoned a little, or whatever I was doing was probably not good so I did a few backstrokes/circles on the 1k with the spine taped to remove my current work.

Then I did about 20 laps on the 1k. The first 10 I used a few lbs of pressure. Then I lightened up with every stroke until the last one was feather pressure.

Then I went to the 4k and did about 25 strokes on it starting with about 2lbs pressure and getting slightly lighter with each stroke until the last stroke was probably negative pressure.

Then I did the same with the 8k side only using less pressure to begin with.

Then I did about 30 laps on the chromium oxide hone.

My technique is one handed and I am careful to keep the spine in contact with the hone(the best that I possibly can.)

Examining my blade with a microscope I see that my bevel is uneven. Some areas the bevel is long and others it is very short. Comparing it to the bevels from razors honed by Joe C, and one by Bill Ellis my bevel appears to be too short. At its longest it is about the length of Bill's and Joes, but this is only in a few areas. Most of the razor it is about 1/2 to 1/4 as long as theirs. There is no rhyme or reason to the bevel length(it is like an S) and I cannot see where I am using uneven pressure or anything like that.

I thought maybe my hones are not flat, so I lapped them again, but that did not help.

I alternate between the X stroke and a straight stroke on the hone. If I stay on an X stroke only I can see the the heel does not get honed as much as it should.

What do you guys think I should do. My problem appears to be getting the initial bevel set right. I thought these razors were supposed to be easy to hone, thats why I can't understand what it would need more than 25 strokes on the 1k to set a bevel.

Where should I go now? Should I restart with this razor doing circles on the 1k, or should I junk this razor and move onto a new Wapienica razor and keep on honing on the 1k until I get a good bevel?

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
Chad

PS - My other honing equipment -
Wapienica black(slate?) stone
Wapienica arkansas stone
6x2" yellow coticule from Howard on the way

[heavydutysg135]

Do not worry about the length of the bevel since this does NOT dictate sharpness. I have honed around 8 Wipienica razors and they all have very small (but very sharp) bevels compared to most other razors. You should try to make a bevel that is a uniform length; however, sometimes the grind on the razor can be a little off making this impossible. Razors with uneven and short bevels can still shave very well, it just depends on the razor. I would say that the 4K side of the Norton should be more than enough and the 1K would definitely be overkill for these NOS razors. One technique to assess if your stroke is even is to color the edge with a magic marker. When you hone the razor the black line should come off evenly or else you need to adjust your technique or you will have to remove more metal because the razor is slightly warped or ground a little off. I would highly recommend just shaving with the razor since you have some properly honed razors to compare your honing to and I bet that you will be pleasantly surprised. If it is not ready just do another pyramid on the 4K/8K Norton followed by a pasted strop or coticule and test again.

[silver2k]

I have honed around 8 Wipienica razors and they all have very small (but very sharp) bevels compared to most other razors. You should try to make a bevel that is a uniform length; however, sometimes the grind on the razor can be a little off making this impossible. Razors with uneven and short bevels can still shave very well, it just depends on the razor.

Thank you for your help!

Ok this makes sense. What I am probably seeing is long bevels from my initial unsteadiness of the hand and uneven pressure. Now even if I were to hone right, those long bevels would not "disapper" from the microscope.

I did try to shave with it last night after stropping it. It popped some hairs on my arm, but was not very sharp to shave with. It tugged on my cheek excessively.

On the plus side, I know I am using the pasted strop at least somewhat correctly. My Bill Ellis razor has never given me a comfortable shave. I think I may have dulled it while stropping(I learned how to strop on that razor) or maybe it dulled during shipping. I gave it 10 laps on the 1.0 diamond and 15 on the chromium oxide. Now it is almost as smooth as a DE shave.

Tonight I will probably go back to the Wapienica and give it a few back strokes on the 1k to destroy what I have done and then restart on the 4k.

[silver2k]

Ok...wtf

I just gave the razor about 20 laps on the norton 8k then 15 on the 1.0 diamond pasted strop and 20 on the chromium oxide.

Stropped with the linen about 30x and then leather 30x.

Blade:
-could pop hairs on arm
-could not pass HHT
-catches on back of wet thumb nail

Shaved like glue. I could feel it catching on every hair. I think I actually made it worse. Last night it could shave with a tug, now it is a painful tug.

Under a microscope I have what looks like a good bevel on the heel and toe and a really really short bevel in the middle of the razor.

Thanks,
Chad

[heavydutysg135]

It sounds like you overhoned the blade if it is worse now. I would highly recommend doing a search for Lynn's Pyramid method of honing on the Norton and doing a 10-10 pyramid on the blade. This should get the razor shave ready. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

[silver2k]

It sounds like you overhoned the blade if it is worse now. I would highly recommend doing a search for Lynn's Pyramid method of honing on the Norton and doing a 10-10 pyramid on the blade. This should get the razor shave ready. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

Thank you for your help.

Will the 10/10 pyramid remove the wire edge? Or should I take it to the 1k and do some backstrokes?

If I were to start with a new Wapienica razor, what pyramid do you recommend to get it to sharp?

[heavydutysg135]

Yes the 10-10 pyramid will remove the wire edge. You do not need to go back to the 1K (you did not need to go there initially either). The 1K is for removing chips or oxidized metal on a very old razor. If I were to do a new Wipienica razor I would also do a 10-10 pyramid, as that got several of them very sharp for me initially. As I said before it sounds like you overhoned the edge by doing too many strokes on the high grit stone and diamond paste. More is not necessarily better it can be worse. The Norton 8K and Diamond pastes are both extremely fast cutting so you did too many strokes on both.

If you have not been able to find it already the 10-10 pyramid is as follows:
10 strokes on the 4K then 10 strokes on the 8K Norton
5 on the 4K then 5 on the 8K
3 on the 4K then 3 on the 8K
1 on the 4K then 3 on the 8K
1 on the 4K then 5 on the 8K
All with very light and even pressure and wetting each side in between.
This will allow you to build and polish the bevel incramentally so that you don not initially overhone the edge.

If you desire, you can follow this with 10 strokes on the .5 diamond paste OR (not and) 10 strokes on the chromium oxide. Then test shave the razor. If it is very close but pulls a little then do another 10 strokes on the diamond or chromium oxide and test shave again. If it still needs more work then do another 1-3 1-5 on the norton and test again.

One more thing that you might want to consider is whether you put too much paste on your paddle strop. The layer of diamond paste or chromium oxide should be VERY thin or else it will do more damage to the edge than it will do good. You might want to try to sharpen another Wipienica razor tonight as well using the 10-10 pyramid so that you can test shave another razor tomorrow morning if your first does not come close to passing the shave test. Keep at it and I know that you will be successful.

[silver2k]

Thank you for all of your help. I will try this on a new razor tomorrow and let you know!

One more thing that you might want to consider is whether you put too much paste on your paddle strop. The layer of diamond paste or chromium oxide should be VERY thin or else it will do more damage to the edge than it will do good.

I would hope that the paste has been applied correctly. I purchased a pasted bench strop from Tony Miller. He applied the pastes. The chromium oxide looks like there is a LOT though. Is that bad?

Thanks,
Chad

[heavydutysg135]

Tony definately pasted the bench strop correctly as he probably has more experience with pasting paddle strops than anyone on the forum. I thought that you might have attempted pasting it yourself and this could be your problem; however, this is not the case.

[silver2k]

Ok I got my 6x2 yellow coticule from Howard. He lapped it flat and rounded the edges. This thing is more flesh colored than yellow...I guess I was expecting more of a pale yellow from the pics. But anyways seems good to me.

I pulled out a fresh Wapienica razor and did a 10/10 on the norton 4k/8k then spent about 15 minutes on it on the belgium coticule. Then I did 10 strokes on the chromium oxide and test shaved my cheek.

The razor tugs still, but I think it is much better. Under a microscope I see that I was able to put a nearly consistent bevel from the heel to the toe. So that's good. The edge looks good too - no chips or roughness.

I have a razor from ebay by altima(bob keyes) I am using this as my benchmark. It is EXTREMELY sharp. That sucker will cut the hanging hair and make a *tink* noise.

My razor fails the HHT at this point.

Tomorrow night I plan on spending about 30 minutes on the yellow coticule on it.

Thanks,
Chad