Thread: Idea for measuring "honing pressure" in order to communicate it ...

Sorry, but I think you are over-thinking this, and the device already exists. Several of us already have done these measurements with postal and kitchen scales. I know that it CAN be made more complicated, but I'm doubtful of the necessity or benefit.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Sorry, but I think you are over-thinking this, and the device already exists. Several of us already have done these measurements with postal and kitchen scales. I know that it CAN be made more complicated, but I'm doubtful of the necessity or benefit.

Ok - fair enough. I'm a scientist so complicating things is kind of what I do...

So how do the measurements translate in something a new honer can understand and apply? What does .5 lbs of pressure feel like? What does 5oz of pressure per square inch feel like? How does one take the measurements several of us have already done and learn from them? It's not the measurements that have the value to me - it's the translation of those hard data points into transferrable knowledge.

Adam

The really is an egg head way to do it is find a honing mentor and let him show you! Make a trip to Randy's house of honing and he'll show you a very scientific measure, you place your finger on the stone, then he puts his finger on yours and applies pressure, there you go! Ok all fun aside, one on one will show you where to start the rest will be practice. In July I,m getting another one on one with the mountain man, he might use the hammer theory. , Tc

Originally Posted by aalbina

Ok - fair enough. I'm a scientist so complicating things is kind of what I do...

So how do the measurements translate in something a new honer can understand and apply? What does .5 lbs of pressure feel like? What does 5oz of pressure per square inch feel like? How does one take the measurements several of us have already done and learn from them? It's not the measurements that have the value to me - it's the translation of those hard data points into transferrable knowledge.

Adam

I work in science too, but I consider my goal to be simplification. I choose not to complicate things for people who don't have the same level of understanding. A razor, a hone, and a postal or kitchen scale are the tools readily available to most people, so pressure measurements probably should not be complicated beyond their use.

Let's imagine the bevel setting (heavy) pressure is 5 lbs, sharpening (light) pressure is 1 lb, and no (weight of the blade) pressure is just a couple ounces. Then all a beginner needs is a thumb and a scale to get a sense of the appropriate pressures at each step.

That said, if you can come up with something more elaborate that can better help beginners, I'm all for it.

Originally Posted by Utopian

I work in science too, but I consider my goal to be simplification. I choose not to complicate things for people who don't have the same level of understanding. A razor, a hone, and a postal or kitchen scale are the tools readily available to most people, so pressure measurements probably should not be complicated beyond their use.

Let's imagine the bevel setting (heavy) pressure is 5 lbs, sharpening (light) pressure is 1 lb, and no (weight of the blade) pressure is just a couple ounces. Then all a beginner needs is a thumb and a scale to get a sense of the appropriate pressures at each step.

That said, if you can come up with something more elaborate that can better help beginners, I'm all for it.

Of course, I was just kidding about purposefully complicating things as a scientist. I'm also an educator - as I posted in response to Glenn's excellent feedback.

As other's have pointed out (BobH, eKtretz and Glenn), and I suspect they are correct - there are likely too many variables to the process that will make the simple measurement of pressure an ineffective metric to explain that portion of the process. The hone, the condition of the blade, the experience of the honer will all translate to uncontrollable variables. If I created a "pressure guide" it would invariably be used incorrectly with a blade for which it was not intended, on a hone for which it was not intended, and a condition for which it was not appropriate. The end result would likely be higher frustration because a beginner might see it as a silver bullet and expectations would be higher. I could control most of those things in a classroom - but certainly not over the web.

Good discussion - thanks all.

Adam

I think the most helpful would be a "Do Not Ever Exceed This...." with the thinner blades. Of course, depending on how wide the blade is and how thin is thin. That would require much experimentation with a range of blades from different manufacturers.

Plus, ballpark numbers are nice for people to get a sense of what to see at what point in a more translatable fashion.

I have to agree with Glen, and others. Practice makes perfect ........ or thereabouts. Knowing how much pressure in increments is fine if you also know what the results of particular increments on particular blades will be. Hone long enough, with various razors, and you'll intuitively know what is working and what isn't. IME.

Just leaving this here for fun




Yes it really is an electric SR honing machine

Originally Posted by aalbina

Ok - fair enough. I'm a scientist so complicating things is kind of what I do...

So how do the measurements translate in something a new honer can understand and apply? What does .5 lbs of pressure feel like? What does 5oz of pressure per square inch feel like? How does one take the measurements several of us have already done and learn from them? It's not the measurements that have the value to me - it's the translation of those hard data points into transferrable knowledge.

Adam

There really are just too many variables at work to set hard and fast rules on pressure and torque used in honing. The variables are which grind are you honing and then there is the individual razor which may or may not need more or less pressure/torque than the same grind razor you just did. Then there is dealing with warps and twists in the blade and so on.

It would be great if you could put a blade in a jig to apply the correct pressure and torque required, then turn the machine on for a predetermined number of strokes for the particular grit hone you are using at that stage in the process. You would have to have perfect blade to do this and that perfection must be in every blade to be honed. That is not likely to happen.

In the end it is down to trial and error till you most of the time get it right with enough experience.

Bob