Thread: Coticule sharpness and why not every coticule is a razor finisher.

I agree with this, of course, but to expand on the topic a little we may consider two other factors that affect the shave: preparation and technique.

Has a razor ever given you a totally different shave, when you prepare your face differently, or perhaps use a different product?

Do you find that an edge off of a different stone forces you to adjust your technique in order to make that edge work (have you succeeded at it)?

As I use naturals exclusively and currently own around 10 different finishers, I would say I experienced this many times. To focus on the Coti, yes, some of them won't finish as well as some others, but that's not to say I can't make those edges work... Well, I've had one, or two when I couldn't make them work.

So I'm not disagreeing at all, I own a vintage coti that will not finish a razor well enough for me, but will adjust bevels in minutes.

One last remark, the new production cotis are wonderful stones and finish razors easily, once you've spent some time with them. Perhaps those vintage ones, I've had the pleasure to try (and fail at finishing) weren't supposed to be razor hones. Who knows, right?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ........ IMHO the reason almost all of the old time barbers (60s-70s) I knew in the 1980s used coticules was exactly because they gave an edge that was keen enough, but not too keen. I don't believe one of those guys would've wanted the kind of edge that you get with a high grit synthetic. They were shaving customers, not just themselves.

As Gary Haywood (pro barber and coticule aficionado) posted after he tried a yellow green escher I sold to him .... "Too crisp." This is not to say that the edges off a good coticule finisher aren't plenty keen, just not 'scary sharp' the way something off a synthetic might be. Of course, even though I'm right ....... it is only IMHO .......

Behold,,, on the Seventh Day God rested.

On the Eight Day, God went back to work and created the Coticule; a stone that all other stones will be measured to, but never above.

Hirlau 1:1

Coticules have a place at the honing table. You cannot have mine. well most of mine. A one hone stone it CAN be with time and patience. Era gone bye. Speed and repeatability is the new reality. Sunday in the shade doing a touch-up after church and chicken.Has flown the coup for most. The Romans used them, I have edges for just Coti. BBW and a pink one are my keepers. Setting a bevel from scratch is a bear. 300 laps on thick Blue slurry to set it proper. Never lay a foundation twice. If you are down for the work it is the bees knees .Coticule is comfortable at an8-10K grit. Coticule.be had me searching and hunting for a year for a unicorn, when it was in my toolbox all along. Time,laps, pressure and slurry. 4 factors all interdependent. balanced is bliss. Coti vs escher vs trans ark vs Zulu vs jnat. and the list goes on.Buttery smooth is valued.Work put in, buttery on the backside.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Behold,,, on the Seventh Day God rested.

On the Eight Day, God went back to work and created the Coticule; a stone that all other stones will be measured to, but never above.

Hirlau 1:1

Thanks for the flash and the migraine. Thanks John.

Tell you one more thing that I recently experienced re, coticules. In another thread, about DMTs here, Kaptain_Zero, referring to coticules particularly, said, "I feel that those sharp diamond tips might shatter/damage any protruding garnets and thus ruin the smoothness of the hone."

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

Well after reading what K_Z said I took too 5 & 1/2 x2 & 1/2" coticules that I've NEVER been able to do anything with ..... and not for lack of trying. These are old Belgian naturals with 'made in Belgium' stamped on the sides. Old pro barber stones.

Ones that I posted about that I didn't know if it was 'me, or the hones.' Well, I drew a pencil grid on both, rubbed one against the other (under the tap running water) and flattened them.

Honed razors on each and got real good edges off of them for the first time.

I have not found a coticule that didn't give me a comfortable shave. I'm sure they exist, but I do tend to believe they are not as common as some tend to believe. With experience, I am finding it more straightforward to get a decent to good edge off most every coticule I try. The fine-tuning takes time, though, but makes up much of the fun in coticule honing.

I believe the lather, prep and varying skin conditions have much more of an effect on shaving comfort than the feel of the edge (given that the edge is sharp/keen enough to shave).

Personally, I would amend your heading and say that not every coticule is a finisher for everyone. But that was pretty much what I got from your initial post, anyway.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Tell you one more thing that I recently experienced re, coticules. In another thread, about DMTs here, Kaptain_Zero, referring to coticules particularly, said, "I feel that those sharp diamond tips might shatter/damage any protruding garnets and thus ruin the smoothness of the hone."

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

Well after reading what K_Z said I took too 5 & 1/2 x2 & 1/2" coticules that I've NEVER been able to do anything with ..... and not for lack of trying. These are old Belgian naturals with 'made in Belgium' stamped on the sides. Old pro barber stones.

Ones that I posted about that I didn't know if it was 'me, or the hones.' Well, I drew a pencil grid on both, rubbed one against the other (under the tap running water) and flattened them.

Honed razors on each and got real good edges off of them for the first time.

Yes it is pretty well known fact among coticule users that the diamond s fracture the garnets and lead to faster cutting but a more damaged edge.

Originally Posted by Pithor

I have not found a coticule that didn't give me a comfortable shave. I'm sure they exist, but I do tend to believe they are not as common as some tend to believe. With experience, I am finding it more straightforward to get a decent to good edge off most every coticule I try. The fine-tuning takes time, though, but makes up much of the fun in coticule honing.

I believe the lather, prep and varying skin conditions have much more of an effect on shaving comfort than the feel of the edge (given that the edge is sharp/keen enough to shave).

Personally, I would amend your heading and say that not every coticule is a finisher for everyone. But that was pretty much what I got from your initial post, anyway.

Pieter, I am not saying you can't shave off every coticule and I am not saying the shaves you can achieve are not comfortable. I am saying picking a coticule at random and expecting 10k plus edge is unreasonable because most top out much lower than that. Very fine finishers do exist but are most people going to put the time and money in to find one? No they will stick with what they've got and shave off it even if it is not the best that edge could be. How are they to know any different if they have only tried a few coticules, they might think its the best thing since sliced bread and that my friend is the common goal to find a stone that you are truly happy with. A very comfortable forgiving edge is easily obtained with a coticule but that sharpness is not what a high grit synthetic can provide and the edge resistance can mostly be felt. This is why such tricks like unicot were invented. To bypass the keenness limit of mediocre coticules. It can be used with any coticule but helps those that max out keenness lower then ideal.

I have shaved of coticule and had a mediocre shave and off another the best shave in the world. The point I am trying to get through to new guys is not every coticule is an ideal razor finishing stone.

Do you know how many times I get messged or even in posts where members struggle to get that final edge. The first thing we tell them is to use a misty slurry and more half laps, strop it etc. The whole point is the coticule is struggling to finish the edge so if you are coming to the finishing stage and water only laps aren't doing it.. There's a problem and that can be dissected as well doing a one stone honing. Of course it works but is a lot harder then using up to ~5k and synthetics and using water only the coticule. Slurry creates damage to the edge. Water only laps should be used for finishing for the best possible edge. I even think Dr Matt would agree with me on that one.

What I don't like is guys being misinformed. Coticules are wonderful stones I have spent hundreds of hours learning and this is my experience with them. Not all are razor finishers... Simply put. Are all jnats finishers? No why on earth would all coticules be. They are natural and vary and that's what makes them so intriguing. The search for that magical edge only given when a certain ritual is used. So go and have fun and you will figure out what works and what doesn't. Just don't beat yourself up if you've tried everything and nothing is working. You got a sub par coticule. They are more prevalent then most dedicated users would like to believe.

Food for thought

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Now this got me thinking. Years ago I read of guys who liked to flatten their hones rubbing one against the other. I had never been eager to try that because I was always paranoid about contaminating one with the other. Besides ........ I had a diamond plate.

That is how many of us raise a slurry on a larger coticule with a small coticule bout.

I remember Maurice Celis of Ardennes Coticule telling us during the October meet last year that he had had an issue with coticules that contained no garnets. Garnets aren't evenly distributed within coticule veins. He uses Herder paring knives to test coticules. If the knife does not leave any visible swarf on the hone it is one without garnets. Using this test you may even find that the garnets aren't evenly distributed within a coticule.