Thread: Water Quality

Originally Posted by Glock27

BADGER BUTT: Not directly related to this, so, since I haven't the slightest idea where to start this I am left with this choice.
I bought a new brush about two months ago. When I smelt the odor coming from the brush I went E-e-e-e-uw! It smelled like it was badger but. I have cleaned and cleaned and I cannot get the stench out of the bristles. All I get every time is the stink of badger butt, despite the fact I have never smelt a badgers butt. Can anyone, anyone at all make a recommendation other than tossing a $40 brush that probably only cost $10 or less to make. Had this to happen with a pair of cow hide gloves and they smelled like cows butt. Suggestions will be attempted to get the stench out of the bristles. P.S. too late to take it back like I should have the day after trying it, but stupid me, I thought I could wash the smell out. Fool.

Try this,,,,,,,,,,,

Brush Cleaning Video | ShaveInfo.com About Wet Shaving

As this thread continues, I sense that some folks think that my initial concern about water quality is just plain silly. Coming from a background in traditional black-and-white photography, I can assure you that the action of water of varying quality on metals can be dramatic, in addition to being subtle. As a default, distilled water is to be preferred there, and it isn't really all that expensive. Some comments have referred to natural stones being in the ground for millions/billions of years. I really don't see what this has to do with water quality. What I have been after is how water, hard or soft rather than "neutral" or distilled, can affect the honing process if at all. The general consensus, as variously expressed, seems to say that it doesn't matter. So I'll leave things like that for the time being.

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

As this thread continues, I sense that some folks think that my initial concern about water quality is just plain silly. Coming from a background in traditional black-and-white photography, I can assure you that the action of water of varying quality on metals can be dramatic, in addition to being subtle. As a default, distilled water is to be preferred there, and it isn't really all that expensive. Some comments have referred to natural stones being in the ground for millions/billions of years. I really don't see what this has to do with water quality. What I have been after is how water, hard or soft rather than "neutral" or distilled, can affect the honing process if at all. The general consensus, as variously expressed, seems to say that it doesn't matter. So I'll leave things like that for the time being.

Water quality does matter, in its own perspective.

You decided to title this thread "Water Quality" in the honing section. The inference that I get is, that you feel that the quality of the water you use during honing makes a marked difference. I do not feel it can; short of using water that is so polluted with visible particles that the edge becomes damaged.

Yes I poked a little fun with the "billion" year reference to stones, but there is truth to that when you look past the humor. All stones contain imperfections & of course so does steel. No water you use will make a marked difference over these two issues, the stones & steel used.
Using black & white photography as an example, is a bit unfair, we are not looking for a chemical reaction to produce an image. We are putting an edge on a piece of steel.

I do like the thread you started because it reflects the enthusiasm that honing razors brings out in some people. Not much difference than experimenting with shave creams or aftershaves. We are part of this journey to have fun & turn shaving into a routine that was once a burden , into an event we now enjoy.

I just cannot believe that water quality plays any part in the edge that I produce on a razor.

Thanks Hirlau. Appreciate the response. I will give this a try and see. It is just disgusting. No product should be this bad.

Actually considering the water quality as a factor is in the same realm as changes in the barometric pressure and status of the moon and humidity and temperature conditions affecting the end result in honing.

By the way, some day when you have nothing to do take a trip to your local water processing plant and look at the raw water coming in and (in most cases) all the processing and chemical treatments the water gets before it's on it's way to you and you'll probably never drink tap water again.

No answers on this for me, only questions based on a general impression.

I'm viewing it more along the lines of viscosity and would be interested in altering distilled water's pH to see what happens. However, that might risk to damage synth stones, no?

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

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I'm viewing it more along the lines of viscosity and would be interested in altering distilled water's pH to see what happens. However, that might risk to damage synth stones, no?

I would advise againt alkaline or acid solutions. A lot of soft or medium to hard bound stones can be damaged that way, and fast. And once the acid is in the stone you can not quickly neutralize it. For every stone you have to seriously look up all available information of the manufacturer. If that is not available, look for user experiences. If you don't find any, take it as a general rule that only hard ceramic bindings can be inert or at least react so slow, that you can stop you experiments before the stone is damaged.

Try glycerine solutions, alcohol, solvents, soaps, simple green. But do not experiment on expensive stones. Maybe a cheap chinese one for starters, Taideas an WeiWei work with oil, soaps, glycerine although i am not convinced that alkaline or acidic solutions are the clever road to begin. Many users in the knife sharpening area like to experiment with their own mix of oil, detergent and water. Test it with oil stones or a cheap chinese one. If you like the viscosity and feel and it works for you in terms of costs and prevents to much cleaning of the stone afterwards, then fine.

But never try this with the japanese stones first, most of them will not tolerate any experiments. If you use oil you will mostly be lucky if you have to flatten the stone half a millimeter to grind away the oily part. Soaps work slower, and remember, only hard oilstones can be boiled and be cleaned by solvents completely. I don't know if even a Taidea would survive boiling in one piece.

Originally Posted by hein31

I would advise againt alkaline or acid solutions. A lot of soft or medium to hard bound stones can be damaged that way, and fast. And once the acid is in the stone you can not quickly neutralize it. For every stone you have to seriously look up all available information of the manufacturer. If that is not available, look for user experiences. If you don't find any, take it as a general rule that only hard ceramic bindings can be inert or at least react so slow, that you can stop you experiments before the stone is damaged.

Try glycerine solutions, alcohol, solvents, soaps, simple green. But do not experiment on expensive stones. Maybe a cheap chinese one for starters, Taideas an WeiWei work with oil, soaps, glycerine although i am not convinced that alkaline or acidic solutions are the clever road to begin. Many users in the knife sharpening area like to experiment with their own mix of oil, detergent and water. Test it with oil stones or a cheap chinese one. If you like the viscosity and feel and it works for you in terms of costs and prevents to much cleaning of the stone afterwards, then fine.

But never try this with the japanese stones first, most of them will not tolerate any experiments. If you use oil you will mostly be lucky if you have to flatten the stone half a millimeter to grind away the oily part. Soaps work slower, and remember, only hard oilstones can be boiled and be cleaned by solvents completely. I don't know if even a Taidea would survive boiling in one piece.

This is very interesting. From this, one might be inclined to think that differences in hard versus soft water, however subtle, might affect a stone's property in an analogous way, again however subtly.

This reminds me of soaking oil-encrusted stones in Simple Green. Upon removal, the character of the surface of the stone (Norton India, Washita, Arkansas in my case) seemed changed.

Don't know anything about water quality but maybe that's why I can produce such extraordinary edges just using two stones (1K, 6K) and tap water. The water is very hard here in San Antonio. Maybe the limestone or the chemicals they use to treat the water adds a little extra grit as I hone the razors. Couldn't tell you. All I know is that it produces an edge that is smooth, straight and sharp just like the ones that experienced honers produce using many progressions of hones on. The stones, linen (CrOx) and leather is all I use. It has to be the water, I'm just not that experienced or good!

Originally Posted by Johntoad57

Don't know anything about water quality but maybe that's why I can produce such extraordinary edges just using two stones (1K, 6K) and tap water. The water is very hard here in San Antonio. Maybe the limestone or the chemicals they use to treat the water adds a little extra grit as I hone the razors. Couldn't tell you. All I know is that it produces an edge that is smooth, straight and sharp just like the ones that experienced honers produce using many progressions of hones on. The stones, linen (CrOx) and leather is all I use. It has to be the water, I'm just not that experienced or good!

I'm not convinced about the difference the water alone makes. There is always the human element. A certain stone feedback works perfect for one and not at all for the next. If the feedback and the conditions are perfect, you learn very fast. Even if you don't understand it consciously, it is all about muscle memory and the experience to read the feel and the sound and the waterline right. You don't have to understand it to be better than someone who learns more on the rational way.

A suggestion for anyone who wants to experiment: before you try totally different fluids, try to add different types of fresh grid as nagura. Try a Naniwa Toishi, a standard little King or any stone in your collection, that releases a bit of fresh grid with the help of a diamand plate. Nagura on a conventional stone is a complicated toppic, but it is much more safe to try this before hitting your stone with a mix of fluids that might change something permanently. If you try higher grid as nagura, the stone feels softer and it stays clean. You wash away the slurry and your stone is perfectly fine again. You try something with coarser grid and the speed jumps, even if it doesn't feel much coarser. The naguras do another job perfectly: they condition your stone better than a diamond plate, you might feel a difference in the response, even if any roughness after the diamond plate is gone after a few strokes. Try the grid of your stone that is generated by the diamond plate. There is so much you can try out before going extreme. If you know that yout stone is perfectly inert with any fluids, wether acid or alcaline your can of course try that. Remember: the harder the binding of your stone the more it relies on the right surface conditioning. You can prepare a translucent arkansas as grid 4000 stone or it can be conditioned to polish at 8000 if you want to compare natural and artificial grids. And a comparable effect can be achived with any artificial hard stone, fine indias, artificial arkansas stones, artificial coticules, i think even a Norton 4000/8000 should be hard enough to try different types of surface conditions. The japanese use their Shaptons with natural naguras. So why not start there, with everything you have right now?