Thread: JNAT Honing nirvana for the noob

Originally Posted by Marshal

Goes without saying there are outliers.

So you're saying that with few exceptions, Jnats are slow. Based on what experience? How do you know that the two stones mentioned above are outliers, and not closer to the norm? Bear in mind that when you hone on a Jnat with Asano Mikawa Nagura slurry, you're cutting with the slurry (sintered prehistoric volcanic ash) and not the toishi proper. I go straight from a 1k bevel setter to a Jnat with Botan Asano Mikawa Nagura slurry and work it until it starts to break down (gray color and grittiness starts to fade) then wipe clean and repeat. Almost every time, by the time the second slurry has started to break down, the 1k stria are gone and it's time to progress. I'll finish the slurry with a quick dilution, and then on to the next Nagura (Tenjyou). Average time from 1k finisher until stria are gone with Botan slurry is less than 10 minutes.

From here on out, I almost never need more than a single slurry from each Nagura, except when finishing on Tomo. Tomo is so fine that I usually take 3 or even 4 slurries to walk the edge up to the keenness I desire. Because Tomo slurry breaks down so quickly, this only takes a couple of minutes, then on to finish with a dozen or so laps with plain water.

I guess I would agree with what Marshal said based on a recent post by Mainaman who seems to have a lot of experience with Jnats. He said that very few Jnats that he has seen fall into the category of fast and fine. Although he has a couple they are not the norm. Of course I have no experience and am relying on my memory of another's post (which may be wrong). I will have to look for that thread.

Well since we want to focus on speed, based on what experience? How about Onimaru's from post 31 in this thread?

You make it sound like all stones are equal but synthetics are just faster..
Well, it's a bit of a generalization but... A synthetic bevel setter is 99.9% of the time always faster than a natural. End result , both types of stone set the bevel, one is faster.
Middle stones are where speed can overlap but even here fast naturals are not common.
The 20k Gokumyo is faster than my fastest Jnat finisher. Of course if if it only takes a handful of strokes to finish, the speed is not so relevant but yes, it's possible to get results that are close enough to equal with synths or naturals & yes, synthetics are mostly quicker but at end game it's always minimal strokes & minimal pressure regardless of the stone..

Outlined his commentary in blue to make it stand out.

Now if I really have to dig through every post of this forum I've read on Jnats to find quotes from others with hands on experience with a multitude of Japanese stones, I will gladly do so. I could also quote Prodigy right above me, but there's a chance when he said, "The slow cutting stones are very common..." that he was referring to naturals in general. But many have said as much regarding Jnat finishers. Not all are equal, slow stones are common, and you may sift through many to find one that is both fast and fine.

If I understand your post correctly, that's 10 minutes on Botan, then on to the next Nagura (Tenjyou)? And how long do you spend on the Tenjyou before spending approximately 6-8 minutes on Tomo? I've clocked full bevel set to finish on soft/hard/translucent Arkansas stones at 20 minutes. Matched that with my 3 Welsh slates. And beat it with Nortons without even trying. With Nortons - bevel set - 5-7 minutes. 1K to 4k - 2.5 minutes, 4k to 8k 1 minute. 8K to finish 1 to 2.5 minutes for any given natural in my collection. Lynn Abrams does it faster(8 minutes from when his blade touches the stone to finish), without a 'proper' bevel setter, while stopping to explain the process:



You could say, "But that's only 8K..." but to go from there to the Naniwa 12K is what 10, 20 strokes? Maybe more, maybe less to max out a Suehiro 20k with nothing between the 8K and the 20?

So you tell me, how fast is a Jnat? From where I sit 18 minutes after bevel set with a 1K is pretty slow.

But again, the name of the game for most of us isn't speed. It's quality, and enjoyment of the process. If speed was the defining factor we wouldn't be burning all that time working with slurry or Naguras when we could whip past it with synthetics and be done in literally half the time.

Edit: Thank you Steel for finding Mainaman's post. That's specifically the one I had in mind, but couldn't remember which thread I saw it in.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Well since we want to focus on speed, based on what experience? How about Onimaru's from post 31 in this thread?

My whole post was based on your implying that the two fast hones mentioned were outliers, i.e.: unnaturally fast. You made that statement as if it were fact, when you have no experience with Jnats (that I recall seeing) to back your opinion up. Throwing synthetics into the discussion, especially how fast Lynn Abrams can hone a factory edge, is off topic to the point I was making. Lynn has honed more razors already than I could ever hope to, so comparing his speed on a Norton 4/8 that he has used for years to mine on a Jnat that I have only been honing with for a year is absurd.

Prior to switching to Jnats last year, I spent several years honing with coticules only. Using fast stones for the grunt work and finishing on fine finishers, I got exceptional results with good speed. I get the same with Jnats, but I enjoy the process much more, and the coticules are long gone to pay for my current stones. I do most of my work on a bench sized Shinden Hon Suita, which is very fast and can even finish decently if you want to finesse it. Once I get to the Tomo stage, I finish on either a Nakayama Kan Kiita, an Oozuku Kiita, or a Nakayama Asano Suita - whichever I think will work best for the razor at hand. All three are excellent finishers, and their speed is less relevant because I do all the pre-finishing on a fast stone.

As for my experience with synthetics, I have owned a Norton 4/8, 2 sets of Naniwa SS 1k-5k-8k-12k, and 2 Chosera 1ks at various times. They did their jobs well, but I did not enjoy using them and sold them all off - some on eBay, but most through here.

All of this is based on my real-world honing experience with synthetics, coticules, and Jnats. I hone nearly every day of the year, often experimenting to broaden my knowledge and to test theories. I need no quotes from others to make my points for me.

Since you seem so willing to dismiss my opinion and experience, I can't see having anything further to contribute to this thread.

Synthetics were brought into the conversation much earlier. In fact the very post you first took contention with was entirely based on results with a synthetic stone vs a natural...

That said, I based my comparison of your experience with your Jnats versus my experience with Welsh slates and Arkansas stones. Leaving out what others have said regarding Jnats, you contend that 18 minutes post synthetic 1K is fast. Then 20 minutes including bevel set without touching a synthetic must be blazing, and everyone that's ever called an Arkansas or a Welsh slate 'slow' is patently incorrect.

I do not have the resources to sift through hundreds, or even tens of coticules and/or Jnats. With regard to those two types of stones I have one coticule that I have experimented with, and what I have read from others (yourself included) regarding both. Since you wish to dismiss not only my real world honing experience, but that of others as well - in spite of the fact that reading and extrapolating information from others' experience is a perfectly viable way to obtain knowledge - then you are correct. There is nothing further to discuss.

The only thing I will add is that my times are all based on what I work on - large Sheffield wedges. Unless you are doing the same, then your time comparisons are apples to oranges.

If speed were my only concern, I wouldn't be using straight razors in the first place.

And I have not dismissed anyone's experiences, merely pointed out that I was not dependent upon other's posts in order to participate in this discussion.